#054: How to Stop Damaging Yourself with Your Words | Chris Stefanick

If you spoke to your friends the way you spoke to yourself, would those relationships become abusive? The words you tell yourself are often filled with lies, but you might not even realize it.

But those lies become your identity, which then dictates the quality and happiness of your life. Thankfully, our guest today can help you beat the lies and discover your real identity. In this episode, we discuss:

• Why it is so important to uncover the lies you believe about yourself

• How it’s simple yet difficult to replace those lies with the truth

• Two tactics and resources you can use today to change the way you talk to yourself and renew your identity

Buy Chris’s book: I AM: Rewrite Your Name—Reroute Your Life

Buy Joey’s book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain & Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

I have a question for you. If you spoke to your friends, the way that you talk to yourself, what would happen? Would you even have any friends for so many of us, those relationships would quickly turn abusive, but the problem is most of us don't even realize how badly we talk to ourselves. The subconscious second nature.

The words we say inside our heads are often filled with lies that we're not even aware of, but those lies told and believed long enough become our identity, which then dictates the quality direction and happiness of our lives. Does that sound important? It absolutely is. Thankfully my guest today can help you discover the lies.

You tell yourself and find your real identity. And don't worry, we're not talking about some phony self-help strategy with no substance. This stuff is actually helpful. You're gonna get a lot out of this episode, like learning why it's so important to uncover the lies you believe about yourself, how it's simple yet.

Difficult to replace those lives with the truth. And you're gonna get two tactics and two resources that you can use today to change the way you talk to yourself and discover your true identity. This is a very relevant topic for those of us who come from broken families. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce. Separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host joy. Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 54 before I introduce my guests. I'm so excited to share with you guys that the book I've written for you is now live on Amazon.

You can buy it there, but first, a little background on the book. The sad truth is that most teenagers and young adults from broken families are traumatized by their parents' divorce or separation, but nobody gives them the guidance. They need to navigate the pain and problems. And without that guidance, they continue to struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles, and much more.

And I experienced this stuff firsthand. I experienced this exact problem growing up and it really shouldn't be this way. My new book is an answer to that problem. The title is it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. And it features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges.

By young people like us from broken families in the book. I answer questions like I struggle with low self-esteem. How can I become more confident after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted, inadequate, and even rejected as something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop?

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? I feel broken. Like something's wrong with me? How can I heal and feel whole again, what can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? Why does God let bad things like my parents to force happen? And if you read the book and you implement the advice in your life, you're gonna see a lot of benefits such as you're gonna learn how to cope with your pain in healthy ways.

Instead of unhealthy ways, you'll become a better, stronger, more virtuous person. You'll learn how to overcome emotional problems. You'll be given tactics to build healthy. Relationships, you're gonna find evidence based strategies that you can use to heal. You'll learn how to navigate your relationship with your parents.

You'll improve your relationship with God. You'll make better decisions that build a better future for yourself. And most importantly, you'll be given tools and resources to get the help that you need. And guys. This is not theory. This is practical down to earth. Common sense advice. That's based on research, expert, advice and stories that we've heard from people like you, people who come from broken families.

And this book is specifically written for anyone who comes from a broken home, especially teenagers and young adults whose parents are divorced, separated, or really struggling in their marriage. And if that's not you, you probably love or lead someone who comes from a broken family. Maybe that's your kids, a cousin, a boyfriend, a girlfriend, perhaps you lead them as a pastor youth minister.

Teacher, coach, whatever this book makes an awesome gift, it really gives them guidance or gives you deeper insight into what they're struggling with. So you can help them. You can buy the book on Amazon right now. Just click the link in the show notes, or you can search. It's not your fault on Amazon. Plus if you order the paper back in September, 2021, you'll get the ebook in audiobook for free.

And to claim those free bonuses, just go to restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored. Dot com slash books, click on the September bonus button, fill out that form and then we'll email you the free ebook and audiobook. If you're not ready to buy, you can get the first chapters free. It's really easy. Just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/books.

Click on the button to get the free chapters. Fill out your name, your email, and then we'll send you the free chapters again. Restored ministry.com. Books. I'm so excited to share this book with you. We've been working on it for a long time and the feedback we've gotten so far has been really solid. So I know it's gonna be helpful for you.

A good tool, good resource to help you navigate the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. Again, you could get the free chapters that restored ministry.com/books or buy the book on Amazon today. My guest today is Chris. Chris is an internationally acclaimed author, speaker and television host, who has devoted his life to inspiring people to live a bold contagious faith Chris's live seminars, reach more than 85,000 people per year.

His reality TV shows videos. And radio spots reach millions of people and his educational initiatives are turning the tide in the Catholic church. He authored the chosen confirmation program, which has already formed more than 500,000 teens. Chris is actually a graduate of the same university that I went to Franciscan university of Stoneville.

He's also the founder and president of real life Catholic and nonprofit, which operates as the headquarters for Chris's various initiative. Above all. Chris is proud to be the husband to his wife, Natalie father, to their six children and grandfather to his granddaughter. Don't wanna make you wait any longer.

Here's my conversation with Chris Stephanic

Chris. Thanks so much for making time to be here with us today. May it's an honor. Thank you for having me. I think this is such a relevant topic for people, especially who come from broken families. And in the book you say that there's a war of words happening in your mind. The outcome of that war.

Determines your destiny. That's a bold statement. What do you mean by that? Uh, the, uh, the devil's real victory in our life. We, we think it's maybe a sin we committed for some, uh, wound we're suffering from, or, or, or something hard we've been through. No, I, I don't. The real victory is when we experience a, a difficulty or commit a sin and then label our.

Based on that, because then we continue to live out of that identity for the rest of our lives. You know, the, the way we speak to ourselves and the way we talk to ourselves and label ourselves shapes how we feel, which shapes how we act, which shapes how our entire life pens out. So really the, so many of the, the spiritual battles we face.

So many of the personal battles with getting to the next level. In relationships in career in happiness. So many of it comes back to when you dig deep enough, how you see. How you talk to yourself, it's that war, that fundamental war of words that determines really the outcome of your life. Mm-hmm uh, and, and a brother.

We, we, we really, we really can't get it wrong. We can't keep getting it wrong, you know, and I'm so tired of seeing people get it wrong. And you could tell there's times where I'm getting it. When people are walking through life, looking like they got the crap beat out of them. When they look tired and heavy.

It's so often because we're beating ourselves up on the inside and God's word tells us who we are. I mean, if you're a child of God, if you believe the things in the Bible, you actually believe the maker, you believe you're you're, you're crazy enough to believe that this universe didn't come from nothing.

That there's a. And that he loves you. If you're a Bible believing Christian, that that's the really crazy, amazing, beautiful part that makes life beautiful. And, and then he would die for you. If, if you just believe that as a matter of faith and leave it at church and don't let it inform the dialogue happening inside your head, you're not really experiencing a redeemed life.

And I'm just so tired of seeing the people of God look so tired we should look different. Absolutely. I think a lot of the people that we work with that restored often just feel so hopeless. And I think this ties into that. So well, I'm curious, what are some of the most common things that people say to themselves that distort their identity?

So I, I, I wrote a book about this called I am, and I have a program, a 33 day challenge program called I am. And the, the book goes through various wrong identities and, uh, replaces the, the lives, tell ourselves with God's work. And the, uh, the, the program is a little more focused in, in a straightforward journey.

And, uh, it's man, I'll tell you there's it, it could be any number of lies. I mean, I, I, I kind of pinpoint a couple key ones just to help people form the habit of becoming aware of what's going on inside so they could pinpoint their particular lie. But I, but I really think that whatever God is calling you to, however, he's calling you to glorify him, to magnify him forever.

The evil one sees that, and he tries to help you come up with a name for yourself that directly opposes. It's a matter of finding out what lie you're telling yourself, finding the opposing truth, and then engaging your will in the process, learning to start renouncing that lie and claiming the truth. And I, I think of Peter, it was one of my favorite scripture stories about this.

Here's Peter called to be the chief of the apostles that the first Pope of, if you're Catholic, you believe he's called be the first Pope. If you're not even a believer, you clearly think this guy's called to be a great leader. First time he encounters Jesus, he says, get away from me. I'm a sinful. So he named himself, he named himself sinful man.

He told Jesus his name and he, he did this in a moment where he could see that he was being singled out and called. He'd get away from me, Lord. I'm a simple, you got the wrong guys. What he was saying. I don't measure up. There was a lot packed into that statement and his name was Simon at the time and Jesus changed his name and he changed his name in a place called Caesar Philippi, where there's this humongous rock overshadowing, this town.

And I've been there. It's, it's, it's a mind blowing place and it's not part of the, it was not part of the Jewish community. It was a pagan. It was on the board of Lebanon. So there was no reason for them to even go here and it probably took a day and a half just to walk there. Jesus took a lot of time thinking about this location.

yeah. And, and, and went way out of the way it was, it was the opposite direction from Jerusalem to Galilee way outta the way, just to get this image in Peter's head. Peter you named yourself, you name yourself sinful, man. I have a new name for you, right in front of that massive rock named him, Peter, which means rock.

And why, why would he do that? Why would he go through the trouble? Because he was gonna make him the chief of the church in the early church, the, the, the fir the first folk. He wanted his identity to form how he led, how he acted, how he felt. He knew that everything hinges first and foremost on how Peter saw himself.

And he wanted that. To stick in his brain. Every time someone said his name, every single. You massive rock passing the fish. a little dramatic, right? Right. Yeah. I'm, God's, God's dramatic. Like that love is dramatic. Yeah. So, uh, that's an essential thing, but what, what is it for you? And for me, you know, is God calling you to lead the God that even one wants to convince you you're incapable or you're weak, but there's all, there's certain ways that God is, is calling all of us.

You know, we, all of us are, are, are blessed. I mean, our, our eternal state of being is gonna be eternal blessedness. And the even one wants to convince us that we're forgotten or we're cursed. I mean, all these lies circle around people's heads. That that have nothing to do with what God sees us. And when you disagree with God, the maker of all things about who you are and what you're worth in that equation, you're the one who's wrong.

yeah, absolutely. There's no way you can be right there. I, I think this seems simple on the surface, Chris. But once you start talking about it and think about it, I think it's a little trickier than it seems because so often I think the lies that we tell ourselves become so second nature, they're just subconscious they're there.

And so unless you really take time to go through your IM book or the course or something similar where you're doing some deep reflection on this, it can just pass over your head. I know for myself, one of the things that I catch myself doing often just on a subconscious level again, It's calling myself an idiot.

Like, are you idiot? You know, I do. I make a mistake. I do something wrong. You're you idiot, you idiot. So I think there's a real need to dive into this. It can't just be something that oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I get what you're saying. I shouldn't be mean to myself. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's simple, but simple is not easy.

Right. In fact, it's very difficult to boil things down to the simple again and much of our lives. We're trying to get back to the simple within marriage. We're crying out loud. Oh, Nothing could look simpler. I love this person. She loves me. I wanna give my life to her. She wants to give her life to me.

the amazing thing. Is it actually, is that simple? But it's not easy to keep it, that, that simple and to work through all the crap that comes in the way of keeping it, that simple, that wants to destroy that, that, that beauty, that pure crystal line beauty , but that's, that's the, uh, the same journey as the, I am, you know, there's, there is a simplicity that I, I want to introduce people to, because most people, they, they don't win this battle cuz they don't even know that they're in it.

They don't show up. We're we're passive recipients of the things that go on in our heads is that St. Paul two Corinthians 10, we take captive every thought and make it obedient to Christ. I think that's a call from, from God's word to say, Hey dude, wake up. You know, people start to despair because they, they conclude there.

I, I can't win this battle. This is just how I am. So I'm just gonna sit here in. Just after years and years of telling yourself something, you just start to believe that on such a deep level, that it's really difficult. It can be difficult to change it. It can, uh, it takes a lot of vigilance for me whenever I feel literally punched in the gut.

I, I realize my old lies are coming up and, and I, and sometimes I feel like I'm gutted literally gutted and I, I'm not aware. That where it's coming from. But then I have to say, oh, this is, this is coming from somewhere. This feeling in the gut's coming from some, oh, I'm, I'm buying into the lies that I whispered so quietly to myself.

I don't, I don't even know I'm doing it anymore. Time to, to name it time, to renounce it, time to claim the truth. Again, again, again, until I PR keep practicing. It's like going into the boxing ring man, and keep punching back until it becomes second nature. That's right. That's right. And you start to. And your life starts to take a new shape.

My book's helpful. The program's helpful. Sometimes counseling is helpful to help people unpack more, you know, whatev whatever you need. Just, failure's not an option though. Losing in this. Battle's not an option. Yeah. So true. I think for some of us, if we treated other people, the way that we talked to ourselves, it would be an abusive relationship.

We'd have no friends, so, oh yeah. Yeah. Note, what are one or two tactics that everyone listening right now can use to change the way that they talk to themselves? Obviously the book and the course go into it in much more depth, but what's one or two quick things that people can use right now. Yeah. It really boils down to number one, realize that you are talking to yourself.

You know, we think without thinking about what we're thinking, realize that you are labeling yourself. There is a way you've decided to see yourself as a narrative that you tell yourself about who you are and, and it does. And, and you do have power over. So that's, that's, that's two you that you're not a passive recipient in the, in this story, you have to enter the battle.

Um, so show up for it. , mm-hmm, show up for that battle and, and, uh, it really the, the, all this, both the book and the program, and so much of counseling. Again go if you need it, but I might be able to save you many thousands of dollars.

so much of it really lands on identifying, naming how you're lining yourself. And then engaging your will, not every thought and feeling gets a vote. Not every one of them has power, unless you give it to that thought or feeling. All right. So stop being a victim to what's going on inside your own head show up for that battle.

And then, you know, are you believing that you're weak? You actually can make a difference, but literally out loud. I've renounced the lie that I'm weak. And I send that lie and all the evils associated with it, all the demons associated with it, to the foot of the cross for Jesus to send to hell when they belong.

And I claim the truth that I can, that I'm strong, that I can do all things to Christly strengthens me, that I'm capable. You know, what, what are you, how are you aligning yourself? I maybe I've renounced a lie that I'm dirty. And I claim the truth that I'm pure. I mean, I literally mean you gotta look in the mirror and say it, man.

You know, preaching is not something you, you, you just go to podcasts for. I mean, the reason that the church has a preaching ministry from, at mass on Sunday to podcast or Catholic radio to whatever the heck you consume, it's, it's all useless. If you don't learn to preach to yourself, that's the purpose of all this.

Is to teach you to start preaching yourself, could form your thinking to the word of God. And then you experience what it means to be a free, liberated, happy son or daughter of God, regardless of what's going on in your life. Amazing Chris, uh, about the book and about the program there, uh, the book itself is a 33 day exercise, right?

Is the program similar? Yeah, it is. It's, uh, I think it's 33 days in the program. Uh, the, the book is more, it's more of a circular thing. It it's. The program leads through different phases. That's, it's more of a linear course that lands on, uh, on making the firm commitment. We just talked about the book lands there too, but it's, it's more meditations on various lies.

People tell themselves in truths from the word of God, just, just to get you in the habit of bathing in those beautiful truths on a daily basis. So I I'd love people. Ideally you go through the program and then you get the book and you just keep reading it again. And. Just, just keep practicing, but you know, there's a lot of people who, however, the heck you feel drawn to do this stuff.

Just dive in. Okay. Sounds great. And how could people buy it and how could people follow you? Uh, it's all on real life, catholic.com, both buying that and following us sounds great. We'll throw that in the show notes for you guys, Chris, thank you so much for your time. Just wanna give you the, the final word and about how this can really make someone's life better.

Thank you brother. Oh, and also you could, you could text the word Chris to the number 4, 4 1 4, 4, and you sent up for a newsletter. I I'm just, I I'm honored by the chance to talk about this. This for me, you could probably tell by talking, none of this comes from, um, you know, I I'm, I have it all together.

Let me tell you how to live. A lot of this comes from spiritual battles have been through myself and the liberation I've experienced, uh, by engaging those battles. And I'm really, uh, Oh, I'm just honored to, to, to share this with you. Thanks for letting me in, because I, and I'm so excited of what waits for you.

on the other side of you entering that battle. Everybody needs this, this isn't just for people who are, who feel particularly acutely broken, which sometimes we all do. Right. But then a lot of times we feel like I got it together. No, no. Everybody has a battle when it comes to identity, everybody. And God is calling us the victory and he's allowing us to be a part in that battle.

Cause he wants to make us strong. He wants us to share his joy of victory. He can just win himself.

Chris is the man. I'm really glad you got to listen to that interview and a reflection question for you to think about. What lies do you believe about yourself? What lies do you believe about yourself? For me, some lies I've believed is I can't build love that lasts. I can't get married. I can't be a good husband.

I'm not enough. There's so many more, but those are just a few that I I've really wrestled with. And what about you? Give it some thought. Write it out. Talk it out with a friend. And if you pray, pray about it, bring it to God. Then I recommend picking up Chris's book. I am wherever you buy books, there's a link to Amazon in the show notes where you could buy his book and his program, or course like he mentioned, can be purchased at real life.

catholic.com real life, catholic.com. Once you're on that webpage, just click coaching, and then you can find the, I am. Renew your mind program, you can sign up for yourself or you can gift it. You can sign up for someone else as well. And then finally, you can buy the book that I wrote for you on Amazon. By clicking the link in the show notes or searching, it's not your fault.

A practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. You can also get the first chapters free restored ministry.com/. Books, just enter your name and your email on there, and we'll send you those first chapters for free. Again, restored ministry.com/books. The resources mentioned are the show notes@restorministry.com slash 54.

Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful, I invite you to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's really struggling from the impact of their parents, separation or divorce, share this podcast with them. I know it's gonna be helpful. Always. Remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#053: Does a Lack of Peace Prove Your Relationship Isn’t Meant to Be?

Many young people from broken families struggle to discern their relationships and calling in life because they feel so anxious and uncertain. The trauma of their broken family and the effects that stem from it often interfere with their ability to discern properly. 

In this episode, we dive into that and more:

• Why a lack of peace isn’t an automatic indicator that a relationship or vocation isn’t meant to be

• How to discern if you feel anxious and uncertain

• How our desire for 100% certainty prevents us from living the life we were meant to live.

Plus, we offer a sneak preview of our brand new book, It’s Not Your Fault.

Get the FREE chapters from our new book, It’s Not Your Fault.

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Join Restored’s Community

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

A real struggle for young people that come from broken families is that we have a hard time discerning our relationships and our calling in life because we feel so anxious and uncertain about so many things. And it's not a topic that's really discussed much, unfortunately, but we've seen a clear trend in the people that we work with.

The people that we serve through restored, basically the trauma of our broken family and the effects that stem from. Interfere often with our ability to discern properly. And so we're gonna dive into that. We'll explain what we mean in this episode. And we're gonna talk about things like why a lack of peace doesn't automatically mean that your relationship or your vocation isn't meant to be.

We'll also discuss how to discern, how to make good decisions. If you feel anxious or uncertain, and then we'll touch on how our desire as people who come from broken families for a hundred percent certainty, often prevents us from living. That we were meant to live. We also share some personal stories about how Miranda and I have struggled with this and what we've done about it.

Also, you're gonna get a sneak preview of our brand new book and how you can get the book and a special offer too. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 50. Like I've mentioned, I've written a book for you, and I'm so excited to share it with you.

The sad is that most teenagers and young adults who come from broken families are traumatized by their parents' divorce or separation, but nobody gives them the guidance that they need to navigate the pain and the problems. And without that guidance, they continue to struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles, and so much more.

And I've experienced this firsthand. I know this problem and it shouldn't be this way. My new book is an answer to that problem. The title. It's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. And it features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by people like us from broken families.

And some of the questions we touch on in the book are I struggle with low self-esteem. How can I become more confident? After my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage?

I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How could I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? What has God let bad things like my parents' divorce happen. And if you read the book and if you implement the. Into your life. You're gonna learn how to cope with your pain in healthy ways.

Instead of unhealthy ways, you're just gonna become a better, stronger and more virtuous person. You'll learn to overcome the emotional problems that you face. You'll be given tactics on how to build healthy relationships. You'll find some evidence based strategies that you can use to actually heal.

These are not complicated. They're simple. You'll learn how to navigate your relationship with your parents. You'll improve your relationship with God. You make better decision. That build a better future for yourself. And most importantly, you're gonna be given the tools and resources. You need to get the help that you need.

And this isn't theory, guys, this is down to earth, common sense advice based on research, expert, advice and stories that we've heard from people like you, people who come from broken families. So this book is really for anyone who comes from a broken home, especially teenagers and young adults, whose parents are divorced, separated, just really struggling in their marriage.

And if that's not you, my bet would be that, you know, someone, you love someone, you lead someone who comes from a broken family. Maybe that's your kids, a cousin, boyfriend, girlfriend, whoever. Perhaps you lead people like that. Maybe you're a pastor youth minister teacher, a coach. In that case, you could use the book to really understand people who come from broken families and offer them a resource that will help them navigate the pain and the problems that they face.

The book comes out on September 21st, 2021. And if you're listening before that date, you can get the first chapters free on our website. I'll tell you how to do that in a second. If you're listening after that date, you can just buy the book on Amazon, or you can still get the first chapters for free to get those free chapters.

It's really easy. Just go to. Restored ministry.com/books. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. You can click the button on that page to get the free chapters. And then you're just gonna fill out your name, email, and we'll send you those free chapters again, just go to restored ministry.

Dot com slash books. Plus if you ordered the paper back in September, 2021, we're gonna give you the ebook and the audiobook for free. And so hop on that. I'm so excited to share this book with you. We've been working on it for months and the feedback we've gotten from people who've seen an advanced copy has been solid.

So I'm really excited. I know this is going to help you. And so if you wanna get those free chapters, you can do that today@restorministry.com slash books. One side note, this version is specifically written for Catholic teen and young adults. We've just noticed that the majority of our audience comes from that demographic.

And so if you're not Catholic or you're not a teen and young adult, is it still useful for you? The answer is absolutely. Yes. We've heard again and again, how helpful our content is for everyone above that age range as well. And if you aren't religious. You can just skip the parts in the book that don't align with your beliefs.

It's still gonna be helpful for you too. And in this episode, you're gonna hear part of the audio book and then my editor Miranda, and I discuss the content where we add some stories and give some more advice. And I do apologize. You're gonna hear some technical glitches. We really try to produce a high quality show, but sometimes it's unavoidable that we hit some technical glitches.

So I'm very sorry about that. Thanks for your patience. So here's a portion of the audio book from our new book. It's not your fault

question, 31. How can I discern my calling in life when I feel so anxious and uncertain? When it comes to discerning your vocation or a relationship, you may have been told that you'll know it's the right decision. If you feel at peace about it, any uneasiness is a sign that it's not meant to. Along those lines.

One writer offered this question as a sign that a relationship is not meant to be quote. Do you feel anxiety when you think of marrying them end quote, but that advice is only half true. A lack of peace could very well mean that this person or vocation isn't for you, but for most people, especially from broken families, it usually requires more Digg.

In other words, a lack of peace is an important indication that something is happening that is worthy of attention, but it doesn't automatically mean you're pursuing the wrong vocation or dating the wrong person in college. I dated a great girl. However, I felt an incredible amount of fear, anxiety, and an overall lack of peace from the beginning of our relationship.

It was so overwhelming that it almost interpreted it as a sign that it wasn't meant to be. It was so overwhelming that it almost interpreted it as a sign that it wasn't meant to. Thankfully I dug deeper and realized I was dealing with depression and relationship anxiety. For three months of our relationship, I felt extremely numb and anxious.

I could barely think straight an argument could be made that I shouldn't have been dating at all. And we did take a break during that time, but had I run at the first sign of a lack of peace, I would've missed out on a beautiful relationship. The source of my lack of peace was not the vocation of marriage or the woman I date.

It was my fear and anxiety about love, relationships and intimacy. I was terrified of repeating what I saw in my parents' marriage. I was afraid of opening up about my past and my current struggles that fear and anxiety interfered with my ability to discern clearly or blended me. I felt unable to discern properly this pattern repeated in most of my relationships though.

It got less intense. The more I. Another cause for my anxiety was my desire for 100% certainty. And my decision to date, the girl I was with, I wanted a sign from heaven. I had to learn the hard way that God doesn't usually make it super obvious what we should do. It would be nice. Wouldn't it? Afraid of making the wrong decision, afraid of failing in the relationship.

Afraid of repeating my parents' mistakes. I felt so uncertain that I didn't want to decide it was too dangerous. I thought even after I finally made a decision, I second guessed myself because I struggled with self-confidence. The first thing that helped me was to identify that fear and anxiety were at the core of my lack of peace.

Therefore, I didn't need to freak out that the relationship wasn't meant to. Once I knew that I could start working through my fear and anxiety so I could see more clearly. Whenever I felt that anxiety, I learned to be patient with myself instead of immediately doubting my relationship or vocation. So if you have a similar experience of overwhelming fear and anxiety in a relationship, make sure to question the root of your anxiety.

Is it the relationship? Is it this particular vocation? Do you struggle with anxiety? Past wounds, identify the root of the fear and anxiety that you are experiencing for people like us. It's often not the external circumstance that is causing it. For example, the relationship or the person you are dating, but it is rather a reaction to past wounds that are being triggered.

Don't isolate yourself, involve older wiser people who can give you advice and guide you share your experience and discernment with people you trust, especially people whose opinion you value, get their thoughts on whether you and your significant other are a good fit or. That vulnerability will help you much more than keeping everything secret.

That helped me, especially when I couldn't see clearly because of my emotions. So receive the love of others during this time, especially for mentors, this will help you make a better decision and feel confident in that decision. The affirmation and love of a mentor gave me the confidence I needed to pursue my.

Be aware of your tendency to be a people pleaser. It won't serve you well when making big decisions. In fact, it will harm you since you might be more interested in making someone happy than in finding what you're called to do with your life. Naturally, make sure you are praying. It helps to calm your heart, mind, and soul, but more importantly, it helps you connect with God.

His opinion and guidance are more important than anyone else's. He knows you better than you know yourself. So get his input too. Lastly, do your best, not to stress about your vocation, keep your desire to do the right thing and to follow God's will at the center. A pure heart and action will lead you down the right path.

When you begin to feel stress or anxious about your vocation. Try praying this prayer. My Lord God, I have no idea where I'm going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end nor do I really know myself. And the fact that I think I am following your will, does not mean that I'm actually doing so, but I believe that my desire to please, you does, in fact, please, you and I hope I have that desire in all that I'm doing.

I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this, you will lead me by the right road though. I may know nothing about. Therefore will I trust you? Always though. I may seem to be lost. And in the shadow of death, I will not fear for you or ever with me. And you will never leave me to face my perils alone.

For more guidance on discerning your vocation by father Steven W's book, how to discern your vocation. You can also download it for free with the bonus material. Another helpful resource is father Timothy Gallagher's book discerning the will of God, which is based on the spiritual exercises of Saint Ignatius of Loyola

Miranda. Can you relate to anything in the content in the book? Like, was this a struggle for you as well? Yeah, absolutely. I mean that overwhelming sense of anxiety hit me so many times. I mean, yeah, it was pretty much a constant battle for me in my dating life, especially I remember, I don't know who it was if it was some in the, in church or if it was something I read outside or.

Just someone's advice. But I do remember that moment when, you know, someone said there should be peace regarding dating. And I was like, crap. It's like, well, I'm never gonna get married then yeah. It's like, oh shoot. And you know, to be fair, I, I do think that. You know, obviously the first few relationships weren't meant to be mm-hmm

Um, however, that doesn't mean that they weren't supposed to happen. I think we talked about this at some point in the book and, um, in other material, but. You know, anxiety pushes people away, um, or it can push people away. And especially in relationships, it kind of causes us to, or it can cause us to either withdraw from people or to clinging to them.

And so either way you end up kind of creating space. From the other person. So, so, and then it just, it causes this kind of vicious cycle in a way you feel the other person pulling away or you feel yourself pushing them away, which then causes more anxiety mm-hmm etc. Cetera. And so I remember with my husband, like one of the things that I professionally had for the first.

Few months of our relationship, which we didn't date that long, but definitely for fair amount of time, I would always have a stomach ache leading up to us hanging out, or during at least like the first half, you know, the beginning that we were together. Mm-hmm . And so that I realized in therapy, you know, she kind of helped me see that that was actually a trauma response.

And, um, that I was reacting to. Kind of my past experiences with men, my, the, the distrust that I had of them because of a lot of what happened with my parents and, and their separation mm-hmm and the woundedness that was there that existed. And so it was really hard for me to let that go, like to not let that be a, um, yeah, like a sign, I guess, of like, this isn't meant to be, because I feel uneasiness.

Like even physically, I just feel. Like almost ill, you know? Yeah. Cause of the anxiety. So, and you know, he, he is my husband, so obviously like it, it was good for me to be with him. It was good that we were dating. But nevertheless there was anxiety. So if I had, you know, maybe taken to heart, someone's advice of like, yeah, if you're, if you're, if you're experiencing some anxiety, like maybe that's not the right relationship.

And I remember doubting a whole lot, and it was actually a lot of my, my close friends and family that encourage me in the relationship and said, you know, maybe this anxiety's kind of unfounded. And along with my therapist too. Um, she kind of helped me work through that. So I absolutely can identify with, with what you were talking about in here.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I wish people would talk about this more often. I feel like there's a huge misunderstanding when it comes to, you know, figuring out you're calling in life, figuring out who you're supposed to be with, if you're supposed to get married, all that. And I think people would, uh, really benefit from having conversations like these more because the advice about peace, like we mentioned in the book, Is good advice, but it's kind of half true.

Like there should ultimately be a level of peace, but that doesn't mean that there's not gonna be some sort of interference based on our past wounds and all the different things that we mentioned in the book. So I think it, it is really important to keep that in mind. And I relate so much with your experience.

Like I mentioned, uh, in the book, there was a relationship. I mean, pretty much every relationship I've been in has had some level of anxiety where I thought maybe it was meant to be because of. Like I said, it got better as I went on, but this one relationship early on in college, it was just so intense.

It was miserable at times because my emotions were just all over the place. And I was trying again, to make the right decision. I was like, am I meant to be with this girl or not? Um, am I meant to, you know, be married or maybe pursue a different vocation? It just caused so much anxiety and I just felt so lost at the end of the day, especially when it just came to any sort of discernment and you did better than I did in the sense that you knew.

Take this to people, which is awesome. I mean, maybe you didn't right away. You can elaborate on that. But I just held this in Miranda. Like I didn't talk to anyone about it. I didn't tell the girl I was dating. I didn't tell really many other people in my life. I just thought, you know what? Something's like wrong with me for feeling this, like everyone who talks about dating or their relationship, they'll say things like, well, it just felt so natural.

And it was just, we just knew it was meant to be, it was love at first sight. I'm like, I've never experienced that. I, you know, there's something wrong with me. And so I literally did think something, uh, was perhaps wrong with me, but there was peace eventually when I was able to, uh, basically stop forcing myself to feel a certain way or thinking that there was something wrong with me for feeling a certain way, but really just like letting myself feel whatever I was feeling.

And. Didn't fight them. Uh, I just let myself feel what I was feeling. I remember I had, uh, dinner with, uh, the girl I was dating and her family. It was new year's Eve. It was an awesome, awesome dinner. We had a great time. And I remember after that, we were just sitting around a fire and for some reason that whole experience and just the idea that, okay.

I can just feel whatever I'm feeling. I don't need to dictate it or manipulate. Or manufacture it that really, really helped me find peace and ultimately helped that relationship grow. I think one of the huge, um, misfortunes of this anxiety is that it robs you of something that should be enjoyable. That should be fun, that should, that we should learn and grow from mm-hmm

And I think like you, you know, you were saying. Anxiety, like other people are talking about the, the joy and the delight and yeah, just like all the goodness that there is getting to know another person and growing, um, with them. And. Know, just all the dating relationships can show us. And, you know, just enjoying that time, mm-hmm anxiety can kind of, it, it steals that, you know, can steal that from us.

It's not cool, bro. You know, like it's, it's, it's not, uh, not, should not be that way and definitely wish that I had enjoy. The dating relationships. Cause you know, I'm very blessed. Like I can say that the guys that I dated were phenomenal looking back, it's like, man, I, I wish that I had just enjoyed that more and um, not let the anxiety cripple me so much.

And even looking for my relationship with my husband, I wish that I had not questioned the process so much, um, because I think it tainted and otherwise, you know, beautiful, wonderful season. It's good that, you know, after that initial relationship in college kind of, we were able to come around. Grow out of it, almost at least a little to a degree, but I think for people like us, man, it can be a huge struggle.

Totally. Yeah. So much uncertainty, like you said. And I think it is, it is a real struggle for that. People like us are more, you know, likely to fall into and perhaps people listening right now didn't have this experience. Um, but I would say the majority of people that we've. Work with, through restored and friends of mine, people I know who come from broken families.

There's a lot of issues when it comes to dating and relationships. And that's just a theme overall that we've seen. But yeah, so many good points that you made. And I love what, you know, you had people in your life kind of giving you feedback, saying that your doubt was unfounded in certain situations, which is, I think it's so freeing.

I think one of the things that's needed is having people really keep you ground. and say like, well, you're not actually being objective about this. You're actually maybe letting your emotions, um, guide you here and make you think that something is a bigger deal than it actually is. Or maybe even think that something is a problem when it's not even there to begin with.

So I think, I think it's good to. You know, keep that in mind and to have people speaking into it, but I'm curious to get your input on something. I remember just wanting so badly to like tell the girl I was dating, you know, at the beginning of college, it was like end of high school, beginning of college to, to be accurate.

But I, um, remember just like feeling like I couldn't. I felt like she wouldn't really understand where I was coming from, because I didn't really understand what was going on myself. I didn't put my finger on it until later that I was dealing with, you know, anxiety and depression and just like overall numbness.

And so it was difficult to even share that with anyone, cuz I didn't have the words to. Tell them describe what I was going through. So that was a kind of its own cross in a very real way. But, um, I'm just curious. Do you think it's helpful for people in this situation to explain their anxiety and their concerns to the person they're dating?

Or should there be some level of like filtering going on because. When my relationships later on, I learned that there needed to be a balance. Cuz if I was just opening up all the time about all these feelings, I was having, the anxiety that I was experiencing, then I, that would actually make things worse than the relationship.

Kind of like you said, it would cause. That person to doubt too. It would, then that would make me more anxious and perhaps them anxious and just cause all sorts of issues, which are the opposite of peace. So anyway, I'm just curious what you think. If there should be some level of, um, vulnerability there or if there should be some filtering and the last thing I was just say before I let you.

Jump in. I was talking to other people about it. Eventually. Eventually I did have mentors or friends in my life who I couldn't talk to about. So I think you have to talk to someone I'm just not sure if it's appropriate to talk, uh, at least without any filter to the person you're dating. What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, that's a tough one. I, I definitely can say my instinct was always to withhold. Um, but I do think that was to a fault. Um, I was very blessed to have an incredible therapist. I would spill it all unfiltered to her mm-hmm and she would gimme feedback. And one of the things she did encourage me to do a lot was actually open up to him more about it.

And so, you know, it could be that my nature is to hold back, hold back, hold back. So I was probably on one end of the spectrum and she was helping me nudge, nudge me a little bit more towards the kind of happy medium mm-hmm , um, which was definitely very uncomfortable for me. But I will say, I think it was helpful.

I mean, and I, I think it's one of those things too, like you're saying, like, it needs to be moderated, you know, especially like I would say at the beginning of a relationship, you, you probably will have a lot of, you know, you might have a lot of anxiety because of all the things that go dating, um, and the uncertainty and, you know, it's also excitement, which can feel like anxiety, which is really confusing, but, you know, so maybe though at the beginning of the relationship, you do wanna have more.

Of, um, a filter I guess, and, and kind of moderate what you, uh, open up about. However, I think the longer you're together, you know, the more it is kind of a continual unveiling of each other mm-hmm and, um, you know, I think there should be a level of comfort with revealing that, you know, when, and to, to, in, in various degrees.

Um, and I would say, um, like you said, you know, you said you talked to other people and I, and I. If, if you're able to talk to other people first about what you're going through, I think that's the ideal people. You trust people who maybe have been in a similar situation experience, similar challenges. Uh, I think if you are able to communicate with them first and then let them give you feedback about yeah.

You know, it might be good to bring this up with them. Or, you know, maybe you just hold off a little, you know, so to get some feedback before going to your significant other, I think is, is really helpful. And I like, thankfully did have that guidance, which served me well, but I do think it opened door sharing what I did with at least with Steven.

Like it, it, it opened the door for him to love me better. You know, like he, he was able to understand me at a deeper level. Something that was totally, totally unknown to him that he, he just had a very different background, very different experience growing up and it and things. So it did open the door for us to grow closer together, to understand each other better.

And for him to love me in a way that I was even better able. Able to receive. Okay. No, that makes sense. And I, I would totally agree with that. I should have clarified before. I don't think you should completely like withhold this experience. I just think, like you said, there needs to be some moderation.

Ideally you're taking it to other people first. And the main reason I was. Saying that is, I think it's important to let your emotions grow and develop because sometimes there can be a tendency. If you like feel any bit of anxiety kind of going off, the whole idea is that there should be peace. and so the first sense of anxiety or lack of peace, we might have this tendency to be like, oh, I need to talk to them.

I need to tell them about this where I, I think there needs to be a little bit of space there. Like you were saying where it's like, well, let me see where this goes. I don't need to act on it right away. And I remember in another relationship in college, uh, having a similar experience, it was probably about six months into the relationship.

Uh, there had been anxiety, you know, at different points, but there was especially a point where I would. Kind of questioned it and thought like, oh gosh, maybe this isn't meant to be. And my tendency was to, you know, kind of rush and bring that to the other person. But then I realized, you know, maybe I should just sit on this a little bit, you know, think about it, pray about it, talk with people who can guide me and then I'll approach them.

And that's kind of what I was getting at before. I think it is wise to use that sort of a filter. Where you never share anything and you're not vulnerable to the person cuz that's unhealthy. That's not good. Um, but to the point where you're not just saying any, everything in anything that comes on your mind or your heart, anything that you're feeling.

So definitely a balance. And I think what you said, the starting point really is to. Understand your tendencies. If your tendency is more to be maybe overly open with someone, then maybe you need to pull it back a little bit more. But like you said, Marin, if your tendency is to be more closed off, which that was me too, then perhaps we are the people who need to share a little bit more, then maybe we feel ready.

To share. So I think there is that, um, that balance, but I think there is value in letting your emotions like develop and grow and not just thinking that one evening, I felt that one thing. And therefore I need to have a serious conversation with this person. Yeah. I definitely think there should be a level of discerning before, you know, necessarily like not to overthink it to death, but.

Definitely letting things settle a little bit before you bring it to the other person. But I remember something that was super helpful that I did share with him pretty early on was my tendency to spiral, like to, for him to say or do something that. Would send my alarm BES going off and I would withdraw and I would just shut down, down.

And when I was able to like tell him that that was something that I experienced, he was able to then identify times when. That was happening and it just, or at least just asked me, are you spiraling right now? You know? And then it helped so much to bring me out of it, to, to, for him to like, have access to that.

So, I mean, and I don't know how early that was and, you know, might, might have been, might have been later in the relationship that I'm remembering, but when you let in, you know, the other person a little bit, little by little. Where you struggle in relationships, like it allows other person to help carry that with you and to, yeah.

Love you in a way. Is healing. Yeah. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. And I really wish looking back to that relationship. I mentioned in the book late high school, early college, I really wish I would've been more vulnerable with her. I think it would've helped a ton. And that was one of the things that ultimately did help the relationship to become better healthier was when I started opening up a little bit more.

So, yeah. I, I agree. It it's definitely nuance. It's something that's not. Easy to just say, oh, just do this or just do that. But there are absolutely different things to consider. And I think in one way, it's like this whole discernment for people like us is more about navigating emotions than choosing like a way of life, which kind of sinks it really.

Yeah. Doesn't seem like it should be this way. Absolutely. I wanted to go back to something that you said too there that the early relationships you had though, they weren't meant to be, it doesn't mean that they weren't supposed to happen. I think that's an awesome way of saying, and I would totally agree in my relationships as well.

Like the ones that didn't work out, um, they obviously weren't meant to be, but I was glad that they happened. So, you know, I think it goes for both of us when we're recording this. We're not saying that, oh gosh, you know, we really missed the train on that one. Like, because we were anxious, we missed our vocation.

Saying that some people I think get that idea. Um, most of the time that's very false, but, um, but I think it is important to say, and I would just relate to, to what you said before and totally agree with. Yeah, it can be, it can be really tough, but the more, yeah, the more experience you get with it, like an awareness, I think is just really, really huge.

Yeah, absolutely. Like the awareness that you had that, you know, at the root of this, like your counselor said that not in your stomach, that stomach ache was really a trauma response that was pointing back to your distrust of men, which had to do with the breakdown of your family, your parents' marriage and your family.

So that awareness, I think, goes so far in helping. Talk yourself off the ledge, thinking that, oh gosh, everything is going to hell. Like, this is not good. Like this relationship is over just kind of catastrophizing. I think that's the word? Um, this whole, yeah, this, this whole drama that's unfolding inside of you.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I think, you know, with, with people like us, we have a lot of fear. Um, obviously this we're talking, you know, anxiety. And so the idea of dating someone and then breaking up sounds just like the end of the world. It's too hard. I can't do this. At least that was my experience. Like.

Remember the idea of the relationship ending was just mm-hmm it just felt like, oh my gosh, like I can't, I can't do this. I can't handle this. Mm-hmm um, I wanted it to be a sure thing and that's just not how life works. So it was really. That navigating that fear can be super, super tough, um, because it just feels so risky.

And especially if the other person doesn't have that experience, you kind of feel isolated a little bit in your, in your anxiety, in your fear about the relationship. But I remember, you know, my therapist kind of encouraging me and saying, you know, and if you break up this isn't it that then it, that then it there's more to the story like that, that person wasn't for you.

Like it was, there's more to, to your journey than just the break, like the breakup won't end everything, you know, there's more that comes after it. Yeah. But it can be, it can be really. Overwhelming, um, and alarming when you're entering in your relationship to accept that reality of reality of yeah. Like this might not work out and that will be painful, right?

No, it, it is such a difficult thing. Just kind of anticipating that pain. Cuz I know for me, I was so loyal in my relationships in the sense that I almost treated it like a marriage. It was like, I can. Walk away from this person, because like you said, in a way it almost felt like a divorce because I, you know, just was thinking, oh gosh, I'm repeating, you know, what happened in my parents' relationship?

And I didn't want that. And so there, you know, there might even been times in some of my relationships where. I maybe should have stepped back sooner or broke things off. And I didn't, because of that fair sense of loyalty, like, no, I will not repeat what happened, you know, in my parents' marriage, I'm not gonna give up on this person.

Like, you know, mom and dad did on each other. So I think that can cause discernment issues. Too, cuz we maybe hold on to something longer than we should, which is, which is really difficult. So I, I definitely relate to you just like dreading a breakup, but I think what your, you know, counselor said is just so helpful and even playing out that ending in your head, I found can be helpful just thinking through, okay, this could.

Then what then what? And thinking of the, then what, for me that has helped me kind of overcome a lot of the fear, cuz then I realized, well, you know, it will be painful. It is scary, but I'll survive and I'll be okay. And is it this, isn't the end of the world that you said? Yeah. And I think after dating a couple guys and it not working out when I was dating my husband.

I had a sense a little, it was still scary. It was still really hard. But I do remember having that sense of like, I've been through some really tough breakups and it sucked, but like I got through it and I, I think I'm stronger because of it. So, and grew grew from that experience. So it kind of gave me a level, a sense of, I guess, security in a sense that I had endured that.

And, you know, and I was here and I was okay. You made it no same, same here. And kind of on, on a little bit of a different note, I just wanted to say to anyone who maybe is comparing their experience of a relationship to someone who comes from a very intact and secure home, don't do that. Uh, I did that and I just think it's really unhelpful.

Again, you ultimately, there should be peace in your relationship, but you might have to fight through a lot of crap to get there. You know, just like Marin and I are saying you might be dealing with some serious anxiety issues or depression, or just struggles with uncertainty and all that. So if you're looking at yourself and saying, well, I am struggling with this and this friend of mine.

It's just like on cloud nine in, in her relationship and his relationship. And I just don't see something must be wrong with me. Maybe something is, and that that's basically what we're saying here. It's like, don't compare like apples or oranges. Don't make it harder on yourself than it already is by saying like, well, I'm not having that same experience as someone else.

And I think, and some level, I just wanna say that I think everyone has some anxiety in relationships that there's like Miranda was saying. There's a lot of uncertainty just by the very nature of a dating relationship. But I think it is important to give yourself some extra grace and not expect your experience to match the experience of someone who comes from a very secure, intact home.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think that was kind of a challenge in my dating relationships that the guys I dated, you know, were very blessed. In that they came from really beautiful families that, um, were intact and secure. And so they, it really was a challenge for them to understand, to step into my experience of, of brokenness and, you know, the woundedness anxiety.

Yeah, definitely. It's tough. And I think even in marriage, you know, if you marry someone who comes from a very different background, you know, your worldview is just totally different. And I think it's, you know, can be mutually, you know, it can be healing for you to be with someone, you know, from a secure home, but it can also be challenging.

Totally. I had the exact same experience. I think every girl that I dated came from St as you like, came from a intact family. And so it was difficult for them to totally understand where I was coming from. And, uh, I, yeah, I remember, I think having similar conversations as we're having now and it not going so well, cuz them thinking well, You feel anxious about this?

Well then maybe it's not meant to be where in reality, you know, there was a lot more underneath the surface, so yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Even in marriage, it can be, it can be really difficult to, uh, to kind of wrestle with all this and explain where you're coming from without it seeming like it's a, it's a major issue.

It's just something that people like us have to roll with, which is unfortunate, but it is the way that it is. I, uh, another thing that helped me. Was grounding techniques, especially when I felt so anxious. So for some of you who are familiar with psychology, you know, grounding techniques where it's basically using your senses to kind of pull you out of your head where, you know, anxiety, a lot of times ends in like racing thoughts, right.

You just get stuck in your head so much. And so you really need to use your body in ways that. Get you out of your head. And so for me, sometimes it was as simple, especially if I was in the midst of like a situation where I felt it with the, the girl or girls I dated, uh, I would even just touch a table or something.

And, you know, if you can imagine I'm doing this right now with my desk, you can imagine just like running your hand up and down the table or grabbing it or whatever, just getting. Out of your head by using your senses. So that's another tip for you guys listening. If this is something you're dealing with, give that a try and you can do that with all your senses, whether it's your sight or smell, whatever you can use, those grounding techniques.

Again, just like it sounds, it kind of brings you down to reality because in, in our heads we can kind of go crazy. We can think up all these different scenarios, think of all these different problems, which may or. Be there. And so it's important that we stay objective and that's where getting other people involved is helpful too.

But these grounding techniques I found to be, to be really useful. Have you Miranda, have you used stuff like that? I think that's still a struggle for me. I think I've learned a little bit about. You know, kind of the practice of mindfulness and one of the tactics that they encourage is using your physical senses to ground yourself.

I think I still wrestle with that. Some, I think that when, um, I'm like something triggers me, um, triggers my fear. It's very, it's so intense. You know, the physiological response is so intense and then also your brain is just like, it just. Takes over and you, you know, there might be like, I might go, you know, eight minutes without saying anything, but my mind is going in a million different directions and taking me down a lot of rabbit holes that are not, not good and not healthy.

So I think that's still more of a struggle. I think what has helped me more has been just vocalizing. It of saying, yeah. Like I, I I'm spiraling right now, you know? And, um, just the act of putting it in words kind of stops me in my tracks a little bit and helps me bring me out of that. But. Um, I think if you are able to use the grounding techniques, like I think that that's a huge tool that can be super powerful.

It's just a matter of, I guess, practice. Yeah. No, that's great advice. So if it works for you guys, maybe give it a try, see if it works for you. And if it does use 'em, if not, there just might be something else out there that can help you. And hopefully some of our content has, you know, directed you to, to those different things.

Marida one other thing. Topic is just the desire that we have for a hundred percent certainty. I've noticed this trend in people from broken families that we just desire that certainty more than other people. And certainly some of this is like a temperament thing, personality thing. Some people just want more certainty.

Some people are okay without as much certainty in life. But I think, uh, especially when it comes to relationships for people who come from broken homes, Really struggle with this. And what I've seen is a lot of people like us, they end up just being really stuck in life and not moving ahead in relationships because they're looking for that.

Like, Perfect fairytale ending just they want the right person. They wanna know that it's right. And they want to have no problems or feel no anxiety. And man, that sounds great, but I've never talked to anyone who who's had that. So I think it's important that we kind of acknowledge that this. Struggle for people like us.

And I'm interested to hear your thoughts, especially like, why is that? Why do you think we struggle with this so much? I think, you know, we've experienced the fallout of what happened when things don't work out and how painful it can be with, with marriage. And so we're traumatized, you know, we, we wanna avoid that pain at all.

And so it becomes a very, very fear is a very powerful motivator. And I think when it comes to dating or making big decisions, like we, we don't wanna be burned again, ESP, you know, because we've experienced it in such a deep way. Yeah. We, we want to. Avoid that at all costs. So true. And the one thing I would add as well is I think I've noticed this tri people who come from broken families is that we de desire that a hundred percent certainty, because we feel like we have no safety net.

We have no backup. We feel like there's no one there for us. So many of us just feel so alone when our parents' marriage breaks apart, our family breaks down. We feel like we have to just figure life out by ourselves. No, one's got our back. Even if maybe they do have our back. If something. Bad were to happen.

We feel like they won't. And so we end up just going through life, just kinda looking out for ourselves. And so I think that's why these decisions, especially big decisions, like a relationship or vocation can feel so scary. And we want so much certainty, which can leave us feeling stuck because we just feel like we have no plan B.

We have no safety. Yeah, we feel like, um, no, one's got our back that we have to, um, we can't mess up. We can't afford to make a mistake, so we're just, we're extra cautious. We're extra risk adverse. And I think there are statistics that children are divorced. Like just don't take as many risks as, um, you know, both in relationships, but also in life in general, we just tend to be more cautious.

We tend to watch our step a lot more and I definitely find this to be the case with myself. Like even. Small decisions. And I think we, we have kind of a couple sections on, on decision making in the book. Things that shouldn't be a big deal. I ruminate over a lot more than, than is appropriate because I wanna make sure this is right.

And so I definitely think that that's something to be aware of. Absolutely. It's a real struggle and it will hold you back in life. And. Not only that it will just leave you with a ton of regret I've realized. So I think it's really good to surround yourself with people who will push you to take risks, like good risks.

Um, but also to just remember that if you do fail, what happens, that's kind of the way's I think, to overcome so much of that fear is just mentally to go through that exercise of like playing it out, like, okay, if I do. what happens? How bad is it gonna get? And in some cases it might be really bad, then you can think, okay, if that happens, what am I gonna do to recover from it?

And then also a third question. This comes from Tim Ferris. He had this little exercise to kind of navigate your fears. You should also ask the question of, well, what can I do to reduce the chance that it will fail? So again, the questions are okay if this fails, like how bad is it gonna get, what can I do to mitigate those risks?

And then if, if a worst case scenario does happen, what do I do to recover? And so if you think through those and give that some time. What I've found is it kind of takes the wind out of the fear and it makes it much more manageable to go through and take that risk because in the end you can see, well, it's not as scary as I thought.

Absolutely. Just putting it out in the open and either, you know, like you said, reasoning through it on your own, or, you know, maybe taking it to someone else again, it makes it so much less scary and you realize, okay, The end result of this, even if I fail, is most likely not catastrophic is most likely not UN fixable.

Um, there's very little that can't be repaired in some way. And even if it is something that, you know, maybe you can't undo, it is something that you can, you know, have a contingency plan for. So I think it's really important to kind of examine that fear and like dig a little deeper. And instead of.

letting it dictate, you know, because it's so loud and it feels so strong, you know, kind of ignoring that a little bit, pushing it to a side a little bit, which can be super tough, but then. Putting it aside enough that you can examine it a little bit closer because a lot of times, you know, the fear is just fear and it's not really just in, in reality.

That's so true. Miranda. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a great conversation, uh, to everyone listening. We really hope this has been helpful for you. And, uh, in Thero I'll give you some more info on how to pick up the book if you'd like to Miranda. Thanks again. Yeah, of course.

I really hope that was helpful for you. One question for you to think about after this episode is over, is how has your anxiety or your uncertainty held you back from good things in your life? How has it kept you from discerning or making decisions about your life's calling or maybe relationships that you've been in?

And most importantly, what are you gonna do about it? What's your plan to overcome it? Give that some thought. Again, you can get the first chapters for free from my new book. It's not your fault. A practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce. Just go to restored ministry.com/books.

Enter your name and your email. We'll send you the first chapters for free. Again, restored ministry.com/books. Or just click on the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned are the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 53. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe, but most importantly, if you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce as, or broken marriage, share this podcast with them, it's definitely gonna help them as well.

Always. Remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

How to Successfully Navigate Your Parents' Divorce (Big News!)

2 minute read.

Here at Restored we have some big news, and we’re really excited about it.

There is a lot to deal with when it comes to your parents’ divorce or separation. And yet, there isn’t much out there addressing the many unique struggles faced by teens and young adults from broken homes.

We wanted to help fill this void, which is why we’re extremely pumped to introduce our new book: It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce.

In this book, we address 33 pressing questions faced by teens and young adults from broken homes regarding the difficulties that stem from their parents’ divorce or separation.

We give advice on topics such as how to cope, healing, dating, handling anxiety and depression, making life decisions, and having difficult conversations with your parents. We sincerely hope that you will find it helpful.

To give you a taste of what you can expect from the book (launching September 21), we’ll be posting content from the book itself on the blog.

Please spread the word, we know there are a lot of people out there who will benefit from reading this material. And let us know what you think! We would love to get some feedback here or in the comments below.

Without further ado, here’s question number five from the book:

How can I stop feeling like my parents’ divorce was my fault? 

You aren’t alone in feeling this way. In fact, most people like us feel this way —‌ at least for some time. When my own parents split, I blamed myself too. I felt like I could have prevented it from happening. If only I had said this or done that, perhaps they would not have broken apart.

Why do we blame ourselves? Usually, it is because we feel powerless in a situation we didn’t choose or cause. Feeling completely helpless, we grasp for some level of control by convincing ourselves that we could have done something to avoid it all. An even more difficult struggle is accepting the fact that one or both parents, whom we love, would do something that could hurt us so much. It’s easier to blame ourselves than to blame them. It’s our way of protecting them. Developmentally as children, we lack the cognitive capacity to move out of black-and-white thinking. Forced to choose between ourselves and our caregivers, we will almost always accept the blame. This is done in hopes of maintaining a good image of the people we need to trust in order to feel safe in our unpredictable world. Further, even if we’ve never consciously blamed ourselves, we may have done it unconsciously which may present itself in feeling that we are somehow bad.

Whether you or maybe someone else wrongly placed the blame on you, it’s all a debilitating lie. Believing it will only harm you. Please, hear me: 

Your parents’ divorce is not your fault. 

There’s nothing you did to cause it. There’s nothing you could have done to prevent it. In fact, the problems that caused the split were likely present in your parents’ marriage long before you were even born. Sadly, there is nothing you can do to fix it, either. The responsibility is not yours, even if you want it to be. 

The uncomfortable truth is that our parent(s) choices hurt us, even if that wasn’t their intention. In fact, they probably thought they were doing what was best for themselves and for you. In order to heal, we have to first accept this truth. This is not about blame as much as it is about acknowledging the responsibility of those whose job it was to protect us.

Next time you feel responsible for what happened to your parents’ marriage and your family, remember: It wasn’t your fault. You couldn’t have prevented it. There’s nothing you can do to fix it. It is not your fault. 

Instead, accept the fact that your parents, ‌who would die for you, made choices that harmed you. That was wrong. There’s no excuse for it. Their actions damaged you and your family. That’s no small deal. In order to heal, you need to face that in all its heaviness. Then, give yourself space to grieve the loss. By doing that, you’ll be able to forgive your parents and hopefully even build a healthier relationship with them.

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Stay tuned for more content from our book, It’s Not Your Fault. You can learn more about the book and get the first chapters FREE here today! We couldn’t be more excited to share this project with you.

Here’s to undoing the cycle of dysfunction and divorce, one person at a time.

How Can I Cope in Healthy Ways Instead of Unhealthy Ways?

4 minute read.

As we recently revealed here on the blog, our new book, It’s Not Your Fault: A Practical Guide to Navigating the Pain and Problems from Your Parents’ Divorce, is live on Amazon!

We’re so confident this resource will be invaluable to teens and young adults from broken homes, as it shares practical advice on so many of the struggles that they face as a result of their parents’ divorce or separation.

Some of the struggles addressed include facing anxiety and depression, experiencing fear of love and relationships, developing an aversion to conflict, and more.

Today we share question 14 from the book regarding healthy ways of coping. We really hope this is helpful to you or someone you know from a broken home and that you will consider getting the first chapters FREE today!

How can I cope in healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways?

After my parents separated, I acted out. I became bitter, angry, anxious, and depressed. In an attempt to numb the pain, I turned to pleasure. A friend introduced me to pornography. Immediately, I felt amazed yet ashamed at what I saw. It quickly led to a habit that offered an escape from the pain and problems in my life. 

Though it offered a distraction, I noticed that in the moment it felt so good, but afterward I just felt so empty. Even at a young age, I knew I wanted to be happy. Porn wasn’t making me happy, so I needed to change. 

The most immediate thing that helped was getting new friends, which is easier said than done. I realized my sports buddies weren’t good for me. Luckily, I met new friends who were genuinely happy. Whatever they had, I wanted it. I discovered that the source of their joy was their faith. They were devout Catholics. In an attempt to be like them, I began to learn my faith, develop intimacy with God through prayer and the Sacraments, and even build virtue in my life. The people you surround yourself with are very important. I love the quote, “You can’t change the people around you, but you can change the people around you.” 

Even with good friends, life is full of stress, intense emotions, and difficult situations. When you experience those difficult things, you react instinctively. That’s the definition of coping. Automatically, you usually turn to unhealthy things or use good things excessively. Why? It’s simple. When you feel bad, you want to feel good —‌ even if it hurts you in the long run. You want the momentary relief — a distraction, an escape, a way to bury your feelings or the reality of the situation. 

The first solution to unhealthy coping is developing “emotional agility.” In her book, Emotional Agility, Harvard psychologist Dr. Susan David explains that emotional agility has two parts: 1) The ability to face and feel your emotions, and 2) Choosing a response in a way that aligns with your deepest held beliefs. How do you develop emotional agility? Dr. David gives a few tips.

First, she says to create a space between stimulus and response. As quoted before, psychiatrist Viktor Frankl said, “Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” In other words, if you want freedom and growth, you need self-mastery. To do so, simply lengthen the space between when you feel something and when you respond. In that space, build discipline to choose what is good and healthy for you instead of what is harmful.

Second, she says to remember that you are not your thoughts. You are not your feelings. You have thoughts. You have feelings. But you are not them and they are not you. They describe how you’re doing, not who you are. And they certainly don’t control you. With practice, you can learn to control your response to those emotions so they don't own you. 

Third, she suggests labeling your emotions. She shares a story about a client named Thomas, who was a business executive. Upon arriving to the office one day, he had a seizure. The paramedics took him to the hospital. After running tests, the doctors had good news: It was extremely unlikely for Thomas to have another seizure. But he wouldn’t listen. Thomas became so obsessed with the fear of having another seizure that he lost his job, his wife, and even his home. 

Years later, he was living on the streets when Dr. Susan met with him in therapy. She noticed that when asked how things were going, he would almost always reply with “fine.” One day, she asked him about his mother. She had been there for him when everyone else abandoned him. When Dr. David asked him how things were going with his mom, Thomas just replied, “Fine. She died.” Dr. David was blown away. At that moment, she realized that Thomas suffered from a condition called alexithymia, the inability to identify and put emotions into words. As a result, he continued to struggle and feel stuck in life. 

To avoid getting stuck emotionally, Dr. David advises to first learn to recognize your emotions. When you feel angry, acknowledge it to yourself. Then, put your emotions into words by writing or speaking about them with someone else. Describe them in as much detail as possible. That alone is extremely helpful in avoiding unhealthy coping that you’ll later regret. 

Similarly, allow yourself to feel your feelings. Don’t bury them. Don’t ignore them. Face them. Instead of running from them, sit with those messy and uncomfortable feelings. If you ignore them, they tend to be prolonged. Like a weed that isn’t pulled by its root, they’ll keep sprouting up.

When trying to stop unhealthy coping behaviors, remember there are three parts to a habit: 1) The cue or trigger, 2) the routine or behavior, and 3) the reward. Eating fast food is a good example of how the three parts work. When you feel hungry you experience the cue or trigger. Going to get food at a fast food restaurant and eating that food is the routine or behavior. The reward is the pleasure from tasting the food, the feeling of being full, and the nutrients that your body gets.

To change a bad habit, it’s almost impossible to stop cold turkey. The neural pathway has already been carved into your brain. As a result, you still experience the trigger (e.g. hunger) and you still desire the reward (e.g. tasty food, feeling full, etc). To change, you have to substitute the routine or behavior with a better action that offers a similar reward. To stop eating unhealthy fast food, for example, you need to substitute that behavior with eating healthy food that offers a similar reward —‌ ‌it tastes good, you feel full, and your body gets the nutrients it needs. 

Also, don’t get discouraged when you relapse. It happens. Since your brain is so accustomed to that behavior, it’s easy to fall back into old ways. Get yourself back up and begin again like you never fell. Discouragement destroys progress more than mistakes do.

For more practical ideas on coping in healthy instead of unhealthy ways, see the bonus material when you purchase It’s Not Your Fault.

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Thank you for reading. Buy the book or get the first chapters FREE today. The book includes bonus material that gives you even more in-depth guidance about healthy coping and ideas on how to do so.

Here’s to undoing the cycle of dysfunction and divorce, one person at a time.

#052: How to Navigate Your Relationship With Your Divorced Parents

A popular question we receive from young people from broken families is “How do I help my parents and navigate my relationship with them?” 

In this episode, we offer advice and answer that question. We discuss:

• What to do when your parents try to enlist you in their war against each other

• How to respond if your parents are asking you to make or heavily influence big decisions for them

• Why you shouldn’t have to pretend everything is okay when Mom or Dad start dating someone else

Plus, we offer a sneak preview of our brand new book, It’s Not Your Fault. 

Get the FREE chapters from our new book, It’s Not Your Fault.

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When I give talks to college students, one popular question that comes up during the Q and a is how do I help my parents? And how do I navigate my relationship with them? It's an excellent question, which is why this is a topic of today's episode. We answer two questions. How do I love and help my parents?

How do I deal with my parents moving on in life and in relationships? So in this episode, there's a few things we discuss what to. When your parents try to enlist you in their war against each other, we touch on how to respond. If your parents are asking you to make or heavily influence big decisions for them, we talk about why you shouldn't have to pretend that everything is okay when mom or dad start dating someone else.

We also hit on how you can change your parents. You might be surprised by the answer to that. We also offer a sneak preview of our brand new book and how you can get the book and a special offer for you guys too. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 52, and like I said, I've written a book for you. The sad truth is that most young people, most teenagers and young adults who come from broken families are traumatized by their parents' separation.

Or divorce, but nobody gives us people like us, the guidance that we need to navigate the pain and the problems. I know this firsthand, I live through it myself. And without that guidance, we continue to struggle in serious ways with emotional problems, unhealthy coping relationship struggles, the list goes on and on again, I've experienced this firsthand and it really shouldn't be this way.

My new book is an answer. To that problem. The title is it's not your fault, a practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents to force the book features 33 questions and answers on the most pressing challenges faced by young people like us who come from broken families. Some of the questions that I answer in the book are I struggle with low self-esteem.

How can I become more confident after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected as something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? How can I cope in healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways? What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events?

How do I avoid repeating my parents' mistakes and build a healthy marriage? I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How can I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? Why does God let bad things like my parents force happen? And how can I discern my calling in life when it feels so anxious and uncertain and lots of other questions.

And if you read the book and more importantly, if you implement the advice in the book, you're gonna learn a bunch of things. You're gonna learn how to cope with your pain in healthy ways. Instead of unhealthy ways, you'll become a better, stronger, more virtuous person. You'll learn to overcome emotional problems.

You'll be given tactics to build healthy, thriving relationships. You're gonna find evidence based strategies that you can use to heal. You'll also learn how to navigate your relationship with your parents. That we'll talk about today. You're gonna improve your relationship with God and you'll make better decisions that build a better future for yourself.

And most importantly, you'll be given the tools and resources. You need to get the help that you need. And guys, this isn't theory, this is down to earth. Common sense advice based on research. Expert advice and stories that we've heard from people like you, people who come from broken families since book really is for anyone who comes from a broken family, but especially teenagers and young adults whose parents are divorced, separate are really struggling in their marriage.

And if that's not, you, you probably love or lead someone who comes from a broken family. Maybe that's your kids or a cousin or a boyfriend, or girlfriend, someone, whoever, or maybe you lead them as a pastor, youth minister, a teacher, a coach, wherever you're at in your relationship with young people who come from broken families, this is gonna be a great resource for you.

And for them, it makes a great gift that you can give to them to help them navigate all the pain and the problems that come from the breakdown of their parents' marriage. The book comes out on September 21st, 2021. And if you're listening to this before that date, you can get the first chapters for free.

I'll tell you how to do that in a second. And if you're listening after that date, you can buy the book on Amazon right now, or you can get the first chapters for free by going to restored ministry.com. Again, restored ministry.com/. Books and ministry is just singular restored ministry.com/books. This link is in the show notes as well.

Just click on the button to get the free chapters. You're gonna fill out a quick form with your name, your email, and then we'll send you the free chapters. Again. That's restored ministry.com/books. And if you buy the paperback in September of 2021, you're gonna get the ebook and the audio book for free.

We're given another way for free to anyone who buys the book in September, 2021. And we'll tell you in future episodes, how you can get the free ebook and the audio book. And I'm so excited to share this with you guys. We've been working on this for months, my team and I, and the feedback we've gotten from people who've seen an advanced copy has been really solid.

So we're really excited to share this with you. I also wanna say that this version is for Catholic teens and young adults. Now, if you're not Catholic or you're not a teen or young adult, is it still useful for you? Absolutely. We've heard again and again, how the content that we put out though, it's technically geared towards people who come from broken homes who are teenagers and young adults.

It, it really helps a whole range of people, especially people who come from broken homes who are outside that age range. And so if that's you, or maybe you aren't religious, you can just skip the parts that are religious, skip the parts that don't align with your beliefs. And it's still gonna be really useful for you as well.

And in this episode, you're gonna actually hear two questions and answers from the book itself. You're gonna hear part of the audio book and then my editor Miranda, and I discuss the content. We had some stories and some more advice. So I don't wanna wait any longer. Let's jump into the first

question. 26. How do I love and help my parents? One day, the mom of a 14 year old boy suddenly abandoned her family, never to return her departure, left his dad. So depressed and debilitated that he struggled to function wanting to help the boy dropped out of school and immediately took ownership of the cooking, cleaning, and shopping to compensate for his mother's absence.

While most of us wouldn't drop out of school. At 14, we share the same desire to help our parents seeing the problems in their lives and the suffering that they experience. We naturally wanna help them. However, we might not know how to do it in a healthy way first, remember that people can change, but you can't change them.

They have to change themselves. You can influence them, but they must choose to change. If your mom or dad are choosing an unhealthy way of living, realize that you are not responsible for their actions. They are, you cannot change them. They must change themselves. By far, the best thing you can do is to live a virtuous life, a life of good habits and an internal disposition to do what is good, live a healthy life in every way possible.

Your example is much more likely to inspire change in your parents than the words you say, set and enforce healthy boundaries with your parents. This not only helps you, but it helps them too. They need to know what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Boundaries are the lines you draw that tell people what you will and will not allow.

When someone breaks the boundary, it must be enforced. It's useless to have boundaries. If there are no consequences for breaking them, boundaries are most needed. When it comes to emotionally supporting your parents do not become your mom or dad's primary emotional support. It's unhealthy for you and them, even though it feels like you're helping.

Instead redirect your parents to people who can properly support them, their family, friends, a mentor, pastor, counselor, and so on. As much as you want to help, it's not your role to be your parents confidant about their struggles, especially with their spouse. You are their child. You should remain their child, not assume the role of their spouse.

If things get too difficult, dramatic or toxic, you might need to take a break from that parent who is causing the issues. At one point, I did not approve of my dad's behavior. I didn't like the way he was treating my mom, my siblings and me. I told him I wouldn't speak to him until I saw changes in his life for more than a year.

We didn't speak. At one point, I explained in a letter that I wanted a relationship with him, but I wouldn't engage with him until I saw him improve the way he treated every. Eventually he didn't prove. And we resumed our relationship. Sometimes love must be tough like that. Don't be afraid to take a break, write a letter if it's helpful, explain your intentions, but don't expect them to respond well.

If they try to bully you or pressure you to go back on your boundary, don't do it. Find a friend or mentor to talk to about whatever you're going through in situations where you've become your mom or dad's confidant the person with whom they share intimate struggles and rely on for their stability and support.

Tell your parents, mom, dad, I know you're hurting right now. It breaks my heart. I wanna help you, but I have to help you in another way. I can't be the person you bring your problems to. Who can you talk to about all this stuff? Suggest someone they can confide in. If it gets bad enough, contact that person and let them know you need their help since your parent are relying on you too much.

Unfortunately, it's so common for mom and dad to badmouth each other to say mean things and even divulge secrets or rumors about their spouse. Usually it's just done out of frustration. Sometimes it's done in order to turn you against the other parent. If there are details, you need to know a healthy immature parent can sit you down and calmly tell you what happened, but it's not necessary to continually bring up those things.

They might feel like they're at war with their spouse, but that person is so your mom or dad tell them that you can say, dad, it really hurts when you say those things about mom. I know you guys don't like each other, but please remember that. She's still my mom. Would you please not talk about her? When my siblings and I are around, if he doesn't respond well, insist that you will not put up with it, leave the room when he brings up the topic or redirect the conversation.

If things get unsafe or traumatic, make sure to call your other parent or an adult you trust and get away. Another common experience for people like us is being the middleman. The person who relays information between mom and dad, this can be extremely stressful and anxiety provoking. The tricky thing is you might feel that if you were to step away from this role, your siblings will be forced into it.

It doesn't have to be that way. Those aren't the only options. Talk to your mom or dad, or write them a letter convey that you are no longer willing to be a middleman. If they wanna tell each other something, they have to go through their lawyer, counselor, friend, or family member, tell them not to use your siblings in your place as you will not tolerate that either you can start by asking nicely, but be firm.

If they don't comply, there's nothing wrong with being the middleman for simple logistical things like Courtney, when mom or dad will pick you up for the weekend, but don't feel the temptation to be their negotiator. It's not your job. They are adults and they need to act like it. Most importantly, talk to your siblings, make an agreement with them that none of you will be the middleman.

You can even tell your parents that you and your siblings are in agreement and will not allow that to happen. Along with playing the middleman is feeling forced to choose sides. This is called triangulation. Sometimes mom or dad will present you with evidence that the other is bad, whether it's true or not.

And that situation, you can say a few things. You can acknowledge the issue. They're conveying by saying, yes, that's definitely wrong. But if they press you further to pick sides, remind them, dad, what you said she did is disturbing and wrong. But please remember, you're talking about my mom. How would you react if someone told you that about your mom, avoid the pressure to pick sides, do your best to be diplomatic.

In some cases, though, it can happen. That one spouse is totally in the wrong and to blame for almost everything that happened in the breakdown of the marriage and family. In that case, it's okay to be vocal about what you believe is right, but in time, do your best to let your parents figure that stuff out.

You should be their child, nothing. While there are plenty of examples of unhealthy ways to help your parents. There are healthy ways too. Usually it's not complicated. Do your chores around the house. If you're living at home, if you're a handier techy person, help them with some home projects or technology, if they need input on minor decisions, feel free to offer it.

But major decisions shouldn't be placed on you. That's UN unfair to ask. So stick to the simple stuff, never be afraid to say, I'm sorry. I don't know what to say. And I'd prefer not to talk about it. Could you talk to your family or friends about it? If it's possible and healthy, spend time with each parent, build a relationship with them, do things together.

Have good conversations, ask good questions. Keep things light, especially if they're usually heavy and dramatic, as much as you're able, keep the focus on your relationship with that parent. Not the other parent, allow yourself to be a kid it's so common to grow up faster than you should as a child of divorce or separation.

Savor the moments when you can just. Be a kid. That's what it's supposed to be like. I'm so sorry if your childhood has been hijacked because of your parents' decisions. I know what it's like, be honest with how you're feeling. If the parent can't handle your honesty, then make sure you can confide in someone else.

Ideally, a mentor instead of bottling your feeling is inside. Get them off your chest, whether in person or over the phone, communicate with your parents. If the conversation goes south, redirect it with a question or statement such as. Can we talk about something else or I don't wanna talk about this right now.

Avoid arguing over text messages. Email is better. Letters are especially helpful. Just make sure that after you write what you feel needs to be said, you let it sit for a day or two to make sure you aren't saying something that you'll. The goal for your relationship with your parents is that it is a parent child relationship.

When you are an adult, it can become an adult to adult relationship, though. They will always be your parents resist the temptation to be their savior that's God's role. Do your best to love and honor your parents in healthy ways without allowing them or anyone to use or abuse you. In the end, your boundaries and love for your parents will make the relationships healthy, or at least help you avoid a toxic relationship.

Miranda. This is an important question. Important content. I remember I was giving a talk at a university and during the Q and a, after the talk, uh, this probably came up the most people wanted to know, like, how do I help my parents? How do I love them? Especially when they're struggling and suffering, because divorce is hard on our parents too.

And so I think generally we wanna know like, how do we help our parents? So this is, I'm glad we're talking about this. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a huge topic. Think a lot of, especially, you know, when you're in that age of like, you're old enough to understand what's going on, you're old enough to see like how your parents are being affected by it, but you're not, you're not in a position that you can.

Fix things or even really get out of the situation, you know, you're still home or you, uh, you go home a lot. Like if you're in college, you know, you might go home a lot during the holidays, things like that. So you're not in a position where you can really fully disengage. So totally, it's really a tough spot to be, to be honest, like to, to witness someone that you love so much going through such a hard time, but also feeling helpless to.

Yeah to do anything about it. And then you're, you're you yourself are most likely hurting as well, just from the situation that you're going through. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's such a good reminder that you can't fix your parents. You can't fix this situation. I think so often we have that desire.

A lot of us have kind of a, a savior complex where we just wanna rush in and rescue, like everyone's struggling. And I think it's good to remember that we can't do that. Like, like the content in the, um, book says we can, you know, influence them. We can maybe help them in some ways, but we can't rush in and like take the reins, take the driver's seat of their life and do everything for them.

So I love what that you said that I think it's an important reminder. And I think, uh, this question, the popularity of this question kind of surprised me, partly because I think there's this misconception. That, when you come from a broken home, you like hate your parents. And certainly there's some people who, who hate their parents.

No doubt about that. But I think most of us, we really love our parents. We might be hurt by them and we almost always are hurt by them when the family breaks down, but we really love them and we wanna protect them. And even to a fault, like we even protect them to the point of where it maybe hurts us a lot and perhaps even hurts them.

And so I think, uh, I think that's a huge misconception that we maybe hate our parents or don't wanna love them or help them or do what's best for them. Um, but I think deep down, even if it on the surface, we might a pair, like we're struggling with them. I think deep down, we really do love them. We wanna help them.

Oh, definitely. Yeah. Another thing that I loved from the content is our parents, you know, frequently, especially during a divorce, hopefully like after the fact and the things might calm down, but during, and perhaps before, uh, they're really at war with each other. I remember this with my parents. They were like going at each other's necks, like it was rough.

Mm. And so it makes sense that they're just in this aggressive mindset, like they're just, emotions are controlling them, so to speak. And then we're kind of thrust in the middle of this war and they're like, wait, wait, I want you to pick a side. Like you gotta fight this war with me. And that puts us in a really awkward spot.

And so I, I love the reminder in the content that, you know, this is still your mom or your dad. And, and I like that question that we put in there. Like, how would you feel if someone talked about your mom or your dad this way, asking that to our parents? Because I think that kind of puts them in our shoes and makes them realize.

Yeah, I probably shouldn't be saying these things or forcing them to, to pick sides cuz I would feel weird and uncomfortable if someone did the same thing to, to me concerning my parents. And I actually asked my dad that recently, I, you know, I don't know if it stopped him in his tracks, but I think it was something good for him to think about.

Yeah, for sure. I think it's like you said, totally natural. You know, when someone is going through something as emotionally, you know, intense as a separation or divorce that they naturally they're so hurt and experiencing so much pain that to show it it's is it's just natural. It's it's almost inevitable.

Like I, I would say it takes super high degree of self control and virtue to try to. Kind of keep that to yourself or to look for the appropriate outlet. And so inevitably I think what happens a lot of the time, like is that the kids, like we, we get the brunt of it, cuz we spend a lot of time with our parents.

We're we're at home totally quite a bit. And so we end up getting the brunt of this anger of this deep, deep, deep hurt that our parent is experiencing. And even though, like you said, like it is so normal and so understandable. It's also very inappropriate. Because you are not the person that should be hearing those things.

Like mm-hmm, you as, as the child, you know, you as their, their son, like, but that is not information or things that you should be made privy to. Um, and so I'm glad, you know, a lot, some of, one of the elements we focus on in this section is the importance of boundaries. Mm-hmm, establishing those boundaries because again, as, as much as that reaction of like, can you believe this, et cetera, cetera is so it's so normal.

And to a degree, like, I I'd, I'd argue that it's very healthy to express, you know, the frustration that you're when you're going through something like that. But you have to think about it in the right context and with a parent talking about another parent with their child, like that is where the boundary is crossed.

That's where it becomes just inappropriate. And so absolutely. It's really important, like you said, and like you, you know, you had this experience with your dad to set that boundary, which can be really intimidating and scary but so important. Yeah. Cuz you don't know how they're gonna react or I've had these conversations with my mom and my dad in person texting, you know, like we said, texting's not the best, but sometimes it's like, if they're just doing out frustration, which again, like you said might be totally understandable.

It's just, we're not the people they should be bringing it to. But I love what you said that it's usually just a matter of convenience. Like it's not like our parents are typically malicious and trying to damage us. They just we're home. They're frustrated. They need someone to talk to we're there. So it does you're right.

It takes a lot of self control to bring it to the appropriate support, the appropriate outlet, like you said, We touched on this in the content, but it's so damaging to continue that for years and years and years where your mom and your dad are both, maybe are just confiding in you again and again about their, just their struggles.

And, you know, it doesn't mean that we can't love and support them. Like we said, in the book content, but it really means like you just said, we need healthy boundaries and we didn't go into it as much, but it is so damaging for so many reasons. It creates this weird dynamic between your mom and your dad too.

When let's say dad is confiding in you a ton, then it might make mom feel like, well, she is more of a spouse to him than I am or, or whatever. And that could be, you know, of course, before the divorce and it can create all these sorts of unhealthy dynamics where the other parent becomes jealous and. Way, messy stuff.

So we didn't go into all of that, but it is just extremely damaging. And there's been research and psychologists, who've written books about this and talked about, um, this idea of like covert sexual abuse, which doesn't mean like physical abuse, but it means this emotional, unhealthy, emotional dynamic in a parent child relationship where they're basically making you into, into a spouse and the term some people throw around is ation.

And so that's kinda what we're getting at here. We wanna be able to love and help our parents without getting to that level, uh, which again is not only damaging for us, but it's actually really unhealthy and harmful for them too. Absolutely. And I think, you know, what the most tragic part is that it, it, it wounds like our relationship with our parents.

And I would say a lot of times it does drive us the kids away from our parents. I, I know, I, I think my parents were pretty good about this actually. Like I, it was. Very rare for me to hear any, like either parents speak ill of the other. That's awesome. Um, which, yeah, I definitely, in retrospect, it's, it's pretty remarkable, but I did have, um, some friends who, uh, yeah, their parents were going through a really terrible divorce and I, you know, hung out.

I spent a lot of time at their house and I could tell that, you know, the mom was relying on her sons, like as a emotional support and wanting to talk about the divorce all the time. Mm-hmm and wanting to know, you know, like information about the dad and none of it was malicious. None of it was, um, yeah.

Wanting to, to hurt her sons at all. But it was, she was just in so much pain and she. Because they were there and because they were, you know, with her husband spending time with him too, she, it was almost like, yeah, this weird usery, um, like you said, of, of specification. And it was really, and what, what happened is of course, you know, the, the boys, like, they didn't want to talk to their mom anymore because wow.

Anytime that, um, they did, it would just, you know, start with a question. And then just another question that, you know, isn't too bad, but then eventually would become a full on and conversation and discussion and then a fight because they don't wanna talk about it. And it was just created so much tension between them.

Um, and it's not that there wasn't love, like it wasn't that the mom didn't love their, her kids or that the kids didn't love their mom, but it just. It's so it was so detrimental to their relationship because it wasn't the appropriate outlet. And so that is like something that I think is really hard to see in the moment, especially for the parents is mm-hmm, how it's hurting.

Um, not only the kids, but just your relationship with your kids, which is of course, most of the time, the last thing they want. Yeah, absolutely. That's a great reminder, especially than any parents listening right now, it's again, in a way by resisting this unhealthy dynamic, we're trying to save the relationship with you.

Um, even if there are some struggles there and it might not seem great in the long run, it will be much better if this doesn't occur, like Miranda was saying so, so good. And I certainly know that experience. And I've talked with, you know, people through resort or just friends who have explained basically the same thing that you just said about it.

Just being constant, right? Cause when in the midst of a divorce, especially a really messy one. It's so at the forefront of our parents' minds. And so they wanna talk about it all the time and it's just overwhelming. Um, and the, in information digging, I don't know if that's a thing, but yeah, that's like totally, totally real because, uh, I experienced that with my parents.

I know friends of mine and people we work with through ReSTOR have experienced that too, where, you know, mom or dad are out of each other's life, but they're so interested. They wanna know like what's going on in their other person's life. And so they'll either directly ask or maybe kind of indirectly passive, aggressively mention some things, kind of looking for a response.

And again, I don't think, you know, most of it's not malicious, but there is just that desire for them to know like, oh, is she dating again? Or is she with another person? Or, you know, what are they doing with their money or, you know, all sorts of topics that they could bring up. And it just puts you in such a tough spot as a child, cuz it's like, well, I just wanna love you.

And I just wanna love my other parent. You know, why do I have to be this middle man? Who's like a spy passing information back. It, it just shouldn't be that way. Not only that, but you're also processing everything that's going on yourself. So it's like, it's hard. It's hard enough to cope with our own, our own pain and suffering at seeing at like at the breakdown of the family.

And then also seeing our parents suffer. So like, we're getting this double whammy of our family's falling apart. And additionally, we see that our parents are struggling with, with what's going on. And then on top of that, there's this unfair expectation of being, like you said, an informant or, uh, or an emotional.

Um, support that, that we, you know, we don't have the capacity to, to be absolutely. Yeah. It's almost like getting hit with, like, if you're in a boxing ring it's like getting hit like in three different places at the same time. Mm-hmm and it's, that's a lot to handle. It's a lot to take in. Another thing that, uh, we touched on a little bit is big decisions.

So parents, I know sometimes maybe feel kind of lost or they feel emotionally depleted and they might not be, uh, in a good spot to make decisions. So they might rely on other people, especially with their kids to make these decisions for them, or to have a heavy amount of input. I know I've dealt with this with, with my parents, especially with my mom.

And again, I think it comes from a good place, like generally wanna know like what they should do in a given situation, especially certain temperaments, I think struggle more with making decisions. So they might be more likely to rely on their kids, but big decisions can be really, really tough. Cuz for example, Some parents come to their kids and they say, you know, should I get divorced or not?

And you know, we could probably answer, no, no, I don't want you to get divorced. I want you to work through the issues, but to, you know, a 14, 16 year old kid, that's really a tough spot to be in. Because if you say, no, maybe your parents' gonna hate you. If you say yes, and you're probably gonna feel guilty.

And that thing is part of the reason. A lot of us feel like it's our fault. is, um, maybe we did have some sort of input like that. I remember when my parents were going through the process of the divorce, the legal case, it was, um, very messy. It was a three year process, which is insane. Typically two years is like really long.

It's usually done in a year. I, I, three years and it was always dramatic. So I remember my mom kind of just, you know, even bringing us with her to the attorney's office. And I was like, looking back, I'm like, yeah, that definitely shouldn't have happened. No, like this call. Yeah. Yeah. Like I get why she did, she needed the support, but it really should have been maybe her sister or her brother or someone from church, someone like that who could have been there for her, not.

My siblings and I absolutely, absolutely. And I think another one that we touched on too, is the tendency for people like us to grow up too fast. I know that certainly happened with me cuz my parents separated when I was, you know, 11 and I felt like I just skipped years of my life in a very real way. And I know my older brother I'm number two in my family, my older brother even experienced that even more strongly because he had to fill that role in very real way, uh, for my dad's, with my dad's absence.

And so that can be really tough and that can cause so many issues. I think later down the road, what a lot of uh, times happens is, uh, if you have a guy or, or a woman who, you know, skips part of their childhood later in life, they may have the tendency to kinda act like a child. May, maybe not in like ridiculous ways, but even in being irresponsible with their finances, John Eldridge in one of his books, talks about how, you know, a, a boy who kind of skipped certain parts of his childhood and, you know, especially who wasn't delighted and in love the way that he should have been, uh, later in life, when he has the means to do it, he might kind of treat himself with all sort.

Toys such as like cars or technology and things like that. And that's almost a way of going back in time and undoing what he missed. And so I think that happens really often with people like us too. And I know in my experience, um, I certainly, like I said, felt like I matured a lot through the separation and it was, um, it was unfortunate.

And so I think it's something you really need to mourn and kind of grieve, but, but I think it is very common for people like us to, to mature, uh, more quickly than we should. Did you experience that in, in your life? Definitely. And I think a lot of what happens a lot of the time, and this was my case too, is that there's usually one parent who ends up struggling financially.

You know, if you're, if a lot of times the mom, you know, may have stopped working or worked part-time to be home with the kids or something along those lines, then all of a sudden, you know, they're not able to have the financial. Stability that they had when they were married. And so then they're, you know, enter the picture, serious financial struggles.

And for me, that was definitely the case pretty soon after, after the divorce. And so, you know, all, you know, you're 12, I was, you know, probably 13, 14 worrying about things like we need towels or, you know, a vacuum cleaner or like, you know, things like that. And you know, it wasn't, you know, we were, we were taking care of like, we, I definitely like there was always food on the table and things like that.

It never got to, to a really terrible point, which I'm sure has happened to, to people who are listening to this. But yeah, it was definitely a strain you could say. And it was something that at that age was not something I should be worried about. And. I was, it was definitely like a big, a big concern. And now, you know, it's funny, you mentioned the John elders comment, but I definitely find myself overcompensating sometimes where, you know, like I, I experience to a degree, a sense of lack, a sense of there's not enough.

And, and so I kinda go overboard and like, I have to have an abundance, you know, an abundance of, of savings or an abundance of, you know, XYZ in the closet or in the pantry or whatever, you know, sometimes it's like, you know, you have to take a step back and ask yourself, you know, is this really necessary?

But you're, it's like the, that seeking for security that I missed, you know, during those years. And so I think a lot of times. With young adults who, who are going through this, um, you do see a financial burden on one or both parents mm-hmm and that can affect you emotionally like that. Can. Kinda change your gears and, uh, make you more serious and, and grow up faster and, you know, think about those things sooner than you than you really should.

Absolutely. It makes me think of the story that we started with, um, in this question about the 14 year old boy and man that is so devastating, right. It's just, he literally had to worry about kinda like you did. Um, but like you said to a little bit more of an extreme about putting food on the table for his dad, um, who's just totally wrecked by the, the breakdown of his marriage and mom leaving.

And so man, talk about having to grow up too fast and worry about things that you really shouldn't have to worry about. And I I'd imagine in that case, finances were a struggle as well, but that's such a good point. I think it's so common that divorce is just very, very expensive too. So even. Maybe before the divorce, your family was in a decent spot through it.

They could have got kind of cleaned out, honestly, like I know mm-hmm, personally know people who have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in divorces just know of know of parents and it's insane. And so you could either, you know, maybe lose your savings or lose a lot of your money or you maybe go into debt and that causes all sorts of other issues.

So it makes sense in your case that, you know, you try to overcompensate and still find yourself having that tendency and in an attempt to find security. It totally makes sense. I remember hearing a story. I think this is right, um, that after the American soldiers, uh, freed. Some of the, um, people who are in concentration camps in world war II, they were so mal, uh, nourished.

They were so, uh, depleted of nutrients, they were so hungry that they wanted to just stuff, their faces with food. Um, but they had to control them because if they did that, they would've died. And I think some of them did and I, I don't know the exact stories. It was just, they were so hungry. So they were just trying to overcompensate by eating as much as they could, which ended up really, really harming them.

So I think it's an appropriate analogy and certainly a tragic historical thing. But, um, yeah, I think it's an appropriate analogy for people like us that just to be aware right. Of the tendencies that we have and maybe why we're doing certain things. And then just that awareness alone I've found can be so helpful in maybe course correcting a little bit, you know, making sure that you're not, um, you know, buying a car that's too expensive or putting too many things in your pantry.

I, I know, uh, I think that can help a lot and even being vulnerable with other people, I think is really useful as well. Just sharing kinda like we're doing now with everyone listening. It's like, Hey, this is, you know, a tendency of mine. This is where I struggled. And they're able to kind of call you on it and help you in those situations.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think I'm really glad we, we touched later on in the booklet, in the book on the topic of self care, because I think a lot of the kind of like needs that aren't met, like, you know, financial or emotional during this period, we there ends up like being this emptiness there. And so.

In a different section of the book, we cover a lot of topics regarding self-care so that mm-hmm we can properly fill that gap, um, and not, you know, rely on unhealthy measures. Like we're saying, you know, you know, trying to overcompensate financially, or, or emotionally or physically for something that, that was taken from us, um, during this season.

And if you take care of your needs, basically what you're saying, what I hear you saying is if you take care of your needs, it could remove some of the tendencies or the need to overcompensate, because you're kind of balanced in those other areas. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm . The last thing I was thinking, uh, I love that quote, people can change.

You can't change them. It comes from a business guy. I follow Daniel tardy. Awesome. Awesome guy kind of put that together. And I think it's a great phrase because it really reminds us that people do have the potential to, to change, to grow, to improve, to heal. Um, but we can't do it for them. And I think there's just such a tendency, kinda like we talked about before to, to just to be the savior, to jump in, to, to change someone.

And I think the better approach is to change yourself. and to really grow and become the best version of yourself. And by doing that, that alone inspires change in other people. And if you've never experienced that, I understand why you might not think that's possible, but it's actually true. And alcoholics anonymous, the support groups for people who are, um, alcoholics, or they, you know, maybe love someone who is an alcoholic.

Uh, that's what they teach the spouses to do. They say. We understand you want to help your spouse stop drinking so much, but you can't do that by, you know, nagging them. You can't do that by maybe forcing them to change. You really have to do it by just becoming the best you becoming healthy and whole.

And then what will happen is that person eventually will see what you have, see your joy, see how good life is for you, and they'll want it to cause that's attractive. And then they'll have the internal drive, the impetus to then change their own life. And that's really the way that it has to work. And that's super hard.

to swallow. I know personally I've struggled with this. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it kind of comes down to controlling the controllables and your parents are not something you can control, but you can, you are in charge of your own choices. And you know, recently someone challenged me with this of. You know, what kind of person do you wanna be and really taking that into serious consideration and then asking yourself, like, does this choice, you know, contribute to the person you wanna be or not?

I think leading by example in that way can be, you know, fill you with so much peace and satisfaction. And then also, you know, not, maybe not always, but a lot of the times can also offer some encouragement and inspiration to your parents. Totally. Yeah, no, that's a great point. And I think the piece that you experience from that, just kind of letting go of the things you can't control.

Like you said, it's amazing. , it's so good. And, uh, sure. It can be hard to get to that point, but once you do it, it's so good. And, and you're right. It's, it's a good point to say that it won't always happen. Where if you become the best version of yourself, then it's automatically gonna change everyone around you.

It's just not automatic. Of course, they still have to choose, but it makes it much more likely. And, uh, if nothing else, I think it's gonna put you in a better spot in life and it's gonna help you to just build a better future for yourself. Definitely. Good stuff. Miranda. Let's dive into the next question.

Okay.

Question 28. How do I deal with my parents moving on in life and relationships? Years ago I visited a friend's family. The parents are divorced though. The marriage was annoyed. It was still difficult for my friend to see his mom dating again. That weekend, his mom's new boyfriend from out of town visited without my friend, knowing he was coming, it made my friend extremely uncomfortable and caused him a lot of anxiety to be blindsided and thrown into what felt like forced bonding.

Sadly, that story is not uncommon watching your parents move on is anything but easy, especially when it happens so fast. It might look like watching your parents start dating again, or get remarried looking for a fresh start. Mom and or dad can even abandon their family for a new family, welcoming a parent's new boyfriend or girlfriend into your life is extremely painful and challenging.

Building a relationship with your stepparent might be harder than you think it should be, or even feel impossible. You might even realize that mom and dad are breaking their wedding vows by the way they're living, which is even more heartbreaking. Honestly, it's not supposed to be this way. And this is something that is very difficult to endure your parent's significant other or new spouse brings a whole host of problems and challenges into your life.

Especially if that person is around often or moves in with you and your parent, you may feel angry, sad, hurt, trapped, betrayed as if you don't have control over your life and completely overwhelmed by all the change and accompanying emotions. You also will likely feel pressure from your parent to accept this new person into your life right away and be happy for them.

This is neither fair, nor realistic. You are entitled to feel everything listed above and more. And to express those feelings. If your parent cannot receive them, divulge your thoughts to a mentor or another adult, you can trust our parents can get so consumed by seeking their own happiness or trying to move on from the hurt they experience that they overlook the suffering.

Their new life causes us. It doesn't mean our parents are bad people or that they don't love us, but we are nevertheless put in a situation that should never happen in the first place. It is not okay. And we are not obliged to pretend that it is first never feel that you need to force yourself to have a relationship with a boyfriend, girlfriend, or new spouse of your parent.

You have every right to take that at your own pace. You can be kind and cordial to them while still holding back from engaging in a relationship with them. If mom or dad are forcing you or even threatening you to have a relationship with their new spouse partner or their children kindly yet firmly place your boundaries, tell them what you will and will not allow if you need space, because the person is around all the timers, moved in, pick up a hobby or activity that you will enjoy and will take some time away from the house.

Start working a part-time job if possible, or stay with a friend or family member every so often. It's okay. Not to be able to handle the proximity of the situation. Part of the reason it's hard to watch your parents move on is that it's not supposed to be this way. Marriage is supposed to be for life.

It might sound idealistic, but that's what God intended and what the marriage vows promise. When that shatters it is naturally very disruptive. It's okay to feel that way. If you don't feel comfortable with it, you can admit to them that this isn't how it's supposed to be. Your parents moving on, can also ruin any hope you're holding onto that.

They would get back together subconsciously or consciously. We often hope that our parents might reunite and find a happy ending to their broken marriage, watching them date and remarry, Smothers that hope if you have concerns about a parent's dating relationship, communicate that to them. See the bonus material for a script on having a difficult conversation.

If your parent's significant other or stepparent is mistreating you. Don't stay silent. Tell your parents or a mentor. If your concerns are dismissed, place, proper boundaries to protect yourself at the end of the day, your direct influence on your parents is likely very limited, except that you have limited control over the situation.

It's not your responsibility to be your parents' moral policemen. It's not your responsibility to be the savior of their souls. It's not your responsibility to fix or change them. You can always speak the truth to them in love, but never think their actions are your fault. They're not instead focus on living your own life.

Give yourself what you need. Space time with friends, activities that bring you joy or even therapy to cope with this difficult situation, become the best version of your. Heal and grow. So you could feel whole again and experience the joy of living a life fully alive. Your example will speak louder than any words you say

Miranda. Another really important question. Uh, I think the first thing that comes to mind with it is we often get thrusted into some pretty awkward situations. Kind of like I mentioned with my friends, it can be really hard to just be forced into that without any sort of choosing on our end and having very little control over the situation.

Yeah. It's definitely, I think, depending on how your parents handle it and you know, when in the process it happens, it can be very traumatic. Mm-hmm um, that was certainly certainly the case for me. I. Yeah, it's just, it's really complicated I guess, but there's a lot of things that can go wrong, unfortunately with it and, you know, yeah.

It, it's, it's a tough, it's a really tough situation that I think is normalized. So, you know, it's kind of, if you watch a movie about, you know, people who are divorced or TV shows, or, um, just talking to, you know, your average person on the street, like, they're, they're gonna say that, you know, it's pretty normal.

Once, once people get divorced to start dating again, maybe not immediately after, but at some point in the future. And it's just treated like, it's a very normal thing that that is is okay. And, you know, I think it, people miss the effect that it has on the kids and how. Absolutely unnatural. It is for us and how, um, like disturbing it can be for us to see our, our mom and dad with, with someone who isn't our parent.

And there is this mentality of, and, you know, we kind of go into this in different parts of the book, but there is this mentality of like, you, you should want your parents to be happy. Mm. Um, and if you don't, you're not a good, you know, being a good kid, you're being selfish. And, you know, I think that's definitely a false dichotomy.

Like we absolutely want our parents to be happy, but, you know, to say that they need someone else to be happy. Like that's, that's not true. Even if they feel that way, that's not objectively a true statement, but also for, for your parent to date may not be the right thing. But also even if, if the situation, you know, maybe there was an enrollment and.

And dating is kind of permissible, you know, to have an expectation for us to like be on board right off the bat and, and like that there's no awkwardness that there's no, like pain is, is totally unfair. And I think it's really sad that so many of us have to go through this without feeling like we, we have our feelings, um, validated in any way.

Um, instead there it's very dismissed mm-hmm and depressed and. Just unfortunate all around, I think. Absolutely. And I love what you said about the question that a lot of people will ask like, well, don't you want your parents to be happy? And the answer it's kind of a loaded question cause the answer of course is like, well, yes I do.

But another perspective is, but not at all costs. It's like, there's a lot of things you can do that may make you give you some emotional satisfaction that might be really bad things to do. and we wouldn't say that we want our parents or anyone we know to be happy at the expense of doing something, you know, morally wrong or at the expense of doing something.

Um, that's just not good for them. And you know, like you said, in some cases, maybe it's, um, they're, you know, in a spot where they can date in other cases, they're not. Um, but either way we wouldn't say that we want them to be happy at any cost, cuz we wouldn't say that about anyone in our lives. And I think that a good question is, is it more important to be happy or is it more important to do what is right and.

It's a difficult question, cuz I think a lot of times in our culture, we just exalt happiness as like the ultimate goal and kind of anything it takes to get there is permissible, even if we hurt people along the way. And I think that's often what happens in situations like this. Um, again, there's a lot of details.

We're not judging every person's situation. I don't wanna make it sound like it's so black and white cuz sometimes there, you know, there's situations that deserve a little bit more nuance, but overall I think we can talk about these things like this and just caution that, um, when people ask you that question, there's more to it than just that.

And I think so often because of that pressure, we feel MERTA. We don't say anything, we just kind of shut our mouths and we. Yeah, just kind of keep quiet about what we might be struggling with. And especially if mom or dad just seem like they're in a better spot. Um, we might just be happy for them and not wanna kind of break up their sort of, um, you know, their dream or their happy place or whatever you wanna call it.

And, and it could be, it could be really hard. Absolutely. And I think a really hard part of this is when you are still living at home and you're going through this, you, you, you get this feeling of being trapped because mm-hmm, , this is painful. This is really uncomfortable. And so emotionally, like you're trapped in that regard, but then physically, you know, you're dependent on your parent.

You need to go home. Um, you need to spend time there and you might be in a situation where one of your parents started dating and like that person is over. A lot, like you, you physically, it feels like you're trapped. You know, it feels like you have, and I think, unfortunately that's when some of those unhealthy coping mechanisms that we talk about kick in.

Um, we talk about that in a different part of the book, but it's so inescapable like that, the pressing reality of like my mom or my dad is with someone new and I can't do anything about it. I can't say anything about it. I can't feel anything about it. And I also just like, can't get away from it, you know, cuz cuz I need to be home so I can do my homework or you know, go to sleep, you know, or eat, get some, you know, food, things like that.

I'm I'm dependent. So I think all of that, like we totally understandably turn, try to turn to things that will bring us any sort of comfort, any sort of relief, any sort of, yeah, just like just relief. And so that's when. I think, uh, a lot of us might turn to things that are actually like really, really destructive.

Um, but we feel like there's no other, there's nothing else we can do. Absolutely. I, it makes me think of a young woman that I corresponded with who, uh, I forget, I think it was a messy situation with her parents, but basically if she would've really said what she thought to her dad, he would've pulled away financial.

She, she knows that for certain. And so that's a really tough spot to be. And if you're, you know, dependent on your parents financially, like you said, it's really difficult to be able to express everything that you want maybe to them. And so I guess our advice here is first off, kinda like we covered in the, the book.

It's okay to feel whatever you feel like you have permission to feel that. And, you know, even if on the other end of the spectrum, this isn't a very big deal to you. Like maybe it's like, okay, I'd never really. Much about it. That's okay. You know, you, you don't have to totally have experience what Marin, ours sharing or the stories that we told.

Um, it's okay. Wherever you're at. That's okay. But, but it's okay to feel hurt by it if you do as well. And, uh, in that case, you might need to kind of fly under the radar a little bit until you can get on your own financially before you're able to maybe say the things that you really, that need to be said, and that could be a tough spot, but you can put little boundaries in place.

You can do some of the minor things in the meantime, even while you're living at home or dependent on your parents. Um, and then later maybe your. Could be a little bit more open with them now, ideally, you'd be able to be open with them even while you're at home, they would receive what you're saying and just like, love you through that and be empathetic.

But we all know that doesn't always happen, unfortunately. So you really have to be, uh, kind of cunning and, and just use your best judgment in these situations. That's why it's so difficult. I think we give some good principles, um, in the book and in this podcast, but then the application of those principles take some real judgment, take some real prudence and, and that can be hard.

Yeah. I just wanna encourage anyone who maybe it's struggling through this. And I, I just remember feeling like I had no one that I could talk to about it because everyone, whenever I did tried to bring it up, it was like, I mean, yeah, I can see where you're coming from, but this is normal. This is okay.

This is, you know, and, and I just, everywhere. I turned, you know, friends that loved me or family member, you know, everyone that. and all other regards were, were great people in my life for this specific issue. There was no real empathy. There was no true understanding because it's like, yeah, it's like going to the dentist, you know, it's like, it's not fun.

Mm-hmm , but it's part of life and it's normal and it's gonna be okay. And I just want you to know, you know, like it is okay to not be okay with this and to feel just pain and hurt. And sometimes, you know, you might feel betrayed or yeah, there can be a lot of really like angry, you know, you might feel angry about the situation.

So we, we definitely want to just offer like that empathy. And, you know, again, going back to our pre the previous question we addressed controlling the controllables, you know, you may not be in a position where. You can even talk to your parents about it. Hopefully, hopefully you can, but if you can't, you know, you, you do have control over, um, how you, how you handle the situation and you have control over ships or taking care of your yourself, physically.

Those are things that, that you do have control over. And, you know, even if it's in the smallest ways, uh, making, making, taking steps towards health. Yeah, I definitely. I think it's a hard, it's definitely can be a really tough situation to be in, but there's definitely a lot of hope too. Yeah, absolutely. And like you said, we certainly get it.

We've been through this ourselves. It's difficult. And I, I love your advice to talk to someone. So basically guys, everyone listening, talk to someone on the outside because especially if you're really dependent on mom or dad at home, it's important maybe to kind of get away from it and get in contact with someone who gets it, who really understands and who will empathize with you.

And who's not really in the midst of the situation. And so I wanted to give a little plug for our community. I think this is a great tool for you to do exactly that. And so if you wanted join our online community, you can go to restored ministry.com/community. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/community.

On there. You, you can discuss these things with young people like you who've been through them. We get it. Like you're never gonna face a situation where someone's like, uh, no, this is normal. Like, this is good. No, we, we get it. We're gonna talk truthfully to you and we're gonna listen empathetically. So we'd love to have you in the community.

Again. ReSTOR ministry.com/. Community. I think another very real struggle is kind of being forgotten when mom or dad move on in life. And that might be in a new family that might be, uh, in a new city that might just be not far away from where you're living now, but they just get so consumed with their new life that you're kind of put in the back burner.

And I've heard this, especially from people we've worked with Miranda who maybe mom or dad started, you know, another family, they have step siblings now. And it seems like the step siblings kind of get all the attention and it's almost like they're just forgotten and left over. And that is a really hard place to be.

Oh yeah. And I think it's like almost cliche, right? Like Cinderella, you know, stepsisters, get all the, get all the goods and Cinderella's kind of, you know, made the skull made. And I think most, most situations aren't that traumatic, but I do think that our parents, because. You know, they're in a new relationship.

They want to make a good impression. They want to, they go like overboard to, um, tend to step siblings and to, yeah. Give them attention, make them feel welcome, et cetera, et cetera. Mm-hmm . And so we're kind of the person that they're dating or the person that maybe they even are newly married to wanting to make everything go smooth.

So we might, you know, our relationship with our parents might fall on the wayside, which can also be really hard. And yeah, because the person they're dating, unfortunately, because which is, you know, an understandable reaction because that's not how it should. Right. It's so messy. It's so messy. And it's almost like we're a reminder of a past failure, right.

Being from the original family and this new family or new life is just a new start. It's kinda like a fresh start, so to speak. And so we just get forgotten and, and then it doesn't always happen. Not, we're not pretending it does. Sometimes parents, you know, do their best to balance both. Um, but it really shouldn't be this way.

And it's just so messy and such a hard place to be. I think another really common thing is kind of, like we mentioned in the book, uh, parent moving on really quickly, like after a divorce that happens a lot and that's like really damaging and hard. Um, but also moving on without telling you, like. It's really typical.

I remember one of my friends, one of my close friends in college, she, um, yeah, she just found out her dad was getting married. I think she might have just found out through like a, save the date or an invitation or something, man. That is tough. You know, when you maybe lose contact with one of your parents and then you find out, oh, they're getting married or they already got married and they already have a family.

And I know there's really messy situations where maybe there was an affair going on and there was this whole other family that, that your parent was providing for or engaging with that you had no clue about. So there can be a lot of surprise. There can be a lot of fast moving that can be really, really difficult to stomach.

Absolutely. One other thing I think we struggle with too, is I think all of us at some level have a hope that our parents could get back together and make their marriage work again, like heal the marriage, make it whole, bring our family back together. I, I think that's such a deep desire in all of us.

Like we just want our families to be whole. We just ultimately would want them to, to be back together. Even if we feel like that's not even possible. Even if we know intellectually, it's like, no, that would never happen. Uh, I think there's just this little shimmer of hope in most of our hearts that wants that at some level.

And I remember in the book that Layla Miller wrote a primal loss where she shares the stories of adult children of divorce. One of 'em said at some point, I don't remember what part of the book, but they basically said, uh, once one of their parents died, it really destroyed all hope. They had. For their parents to get back together and they didn't even realize they were holding onto that for years.

It was like the first thought that came into their mind when they found out that their mom or dad died. It was just that, oh, well I guess mom and dad won't get back together, which is really profound the years, a few years after the separation or divorce. That's, you know, a hope that we, that we have when we're faced with a situation where we, that hope is crushed like that, that hope is, um, is taken away from us.

Like it, it it's devastating. And it's like, it's a deep, very real loss. And I think it's something that needs to be acknowledged, you know, within us and of two people who had, had vowed to spend their, their lives together. Like. That is a good thing, you know, to, it might seem juvenile or like this is, you know, impossible would never happen.

And you know, most of the times it doesn't, but I think it's just important to affirm, like that is a good desire. That is a valid hope. And, you know, losing that when, when you're faced with, with parents, moving on is a true loss and it's something that needs to be grieved. So. Yeah, I think Myrta one thing you taught me a while back was that we all have this longing for redemption and you see that a lot in stories, whether it's a movie or a novel, how, you know, so many stories are stories of redemption where there's some brokenness or some big problem in a person's life.

And then the whole story is really a struggle to deal with that and to come through on the other side. And so I think, like you said, it's just so natural and normal to, to feel this desire. Um, even if it won't become a reality or even if it can't become a reality, cuz maybe, you know, one parent died or there's like an really toxic, abusive situation that the parents have to be separated.

It, it it's so hard, but it makes sense. Absolutely. One thing that you'll notice guys that we put a lot in this book, it's kind of recurring theme is that you just need to focus on yourself. It doesn't mean you shouldn't love and help other people or love and help your parents in some ways, but that the focus needs to be on you.

And like we covered in the commentary on the last, uh, question from the book. We really want you to know that you have to control what you can control. You have to just focus on becoming the best you, and through that, it'll be the best thing you can do to, to help your mom or your dad. And so we, we really reemphasize that again and again, in the book.

And so I just wanna encourage you to pick up the book, get the book. Um, I'll tell you a little bit in the outro, how to do that. Um, but we really, really, um, hope this is helpful. We've been working on this for a long time. We've put a lot of thought into it and gotten a lot of feedback on how to make it better.

And so this really is a manual, a playbook for you to navigate these difficult situations. Um, and one thing I, I know for myself, it's like, even if I know some of these things, one, it's always good to be reminded and two in a really intense situation. It's easy for all that knowledge to just go out the window.

And so if you have something physically before you like this book where you can, in a situation where you're struggling with your parents, or you wanna know how to deal with them, moving on. You can just open up that question, read it and be reminded, uh, of what you can do, what you should do in that situation.

And also just receive some empathy from, from us, uh, from me writing this book because you, you deserve that. You really do. And so, uh, one thing I also wanted to say, I know in the content that I read, there's some mention of bonus material. So bonus material, there's a bunch of bonus material that we include.

I won't go into it right now, but we include with the book that is meant to help you even further. So that comes free when you purchase the book, but it's really there to, to offer a little bit more guidance than we were able to cover within the content of the book itself. Miranda, thank you so much for, for being here.

Thanks for discussing this. I think this is gonna help a lot of people.

I wanna leave you with a question that you can think about you can reflect on and that's this, what are one or two things that you can do? To love and help your parents today, or this week,

give that some thought, come up with some really practical things that you can do. And hopefully the content in this episode helped you figure that. Again, you could get the first chapters for free from my new book. It's not your fault. A practical guide to navigating the pain and problems from your parents' divorce.

Just go to ReSTOR ministry.com/books. Again, ReSTOR ministry, ministry, singular.com/books. Just enter your name and email and we'll send you the first chapters for free. Go to ReSTOR ministry.com/books. Or just click the link in the show notes. The resources mentioned on the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 52.

Thank you so much for listening, and this has been useful. Feel free to subscribe, and if you know someone who's struggling from their parents to divorce or broken marriage, share this podcast with them always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you are born to be.

The Scary Thing Is That I Feel Nothing

2 minute read

This story was written by an anonymous contributor at 23 years old. His parents divorced when he was 14 years old. He gave permission for his story to be shared.

HIS STORY

Well, before all this, I was used to my parents fighting at home. I remember one time the fight got really bad. It got to the point where my dad was strangling my mum. I was a kid at the time and I remember trying to pull his hands off her neck. The scary thing about all this is that I feel nothing when revisiting this memory. Anyway, before the divorce, there was another nasty fight just before I went back to school from a school break we were taking. ( I was in a boarding high school at the time).

At the end of that semester my mum came for me at school as usual, but this time she told me we would be going to a new house and that she and my father had separated. She explained that the separation had to happen to make sure the fighting at home did not get worse. I talked to my dad that day and all he asked me was what I thought about the whole divorce situation. That was all the explanation I got on that day and since then I have been navigating the holidays by just thinking about who I will visit and for how long.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HIM FEEL

To be honest, nothing. I never dealt with it, all I remember doing is agreeing to all explanations and moving on like nothing was different. I still do this to date.

HOW HIS PARENTS' DIVORCE HAS IMPACTED HIM

I am just learning about the impact of the divorce even as I type this. I find it hard to trust and I appreciate that this has strained most of my friendships. I have never been in a romantic relationship (which is embarrassing considering almost everyone I know has been in one) and I find it hard to connect to people intimately. I have struggled with substance abuse (marijuana), porn, and suicidal thoughts for the past few years. Fortunately, I was able to kick the marijuana use a few months ago. My self-esteem has also been severely impacted and I am trying to improve this because otherwise, I become too self-conscious and unable to properly interact with others.

HOW TO HELP YOUNG PEOPLE FROM DIVORCED OR SEPARATED FAMILIES

Free or affordable resources such as Restored, therapy, and counseling should be availed for those affected because the healing goes a long way in living a fulfilled life.

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Are you interested in sharing your story with Restored?  If so, click the button above. Sharing your story can help you begin healing. 

Be assured: Your privacy is very important to us. Your name and story will never be shared unless you give explicit permission.

#051: Music: A Powerful Tool to Help You Cope & Heal | Jenny & Tyler

Music has always been a tool to cope with the pain and problems from my parents’ divorce. Two artists whose music helped me a lot are Jenny and Tyler, a married musical duo. Their music and marriage have especially convinced me that love can last. 

In this episode, they share:

• Lessons they’ve learned after years in marriage that would’ve been helpful to know before they got married. 

• Encouragement to anyone from a broken home who’s afraid of love and marriage. 

• Advice to anyone who’s afraid of taking risks - as artists, they know a thing or two about taking risks

Listen to Jenny & Tyler

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Links & Resources

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• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Patreon: Support Jenny & Tyler

• Receive a free record from Jenny & Tyler

• Jenny & Tyler Tour Dates, Concert Tickets and Live Streams

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

One thing that has always helped me deal with the pain and the problems from my parents' divorce is music playing it. I played piano for a bit growing up, but especially listening to it. There's just something about music that was so helpful. And it really became for me a healthy way of coping instead of a lot of the unhealthy ways that I was.

Tempted to, and two artists that really inspired me and his music just helped me a ton. Join me on the show today. They're a beautiful, married couple that really sing about love and especially the messiness of life. And one of the things about their music and especially their beautiful marriage have done for me is they've convinced me that love can last.

And I'm so excited for you to meet them. And in the show, some of the things you're gonna hear, what you're gonna get out of it. You're gonna hear us discuss lessons that they've learned after years in marriage. That really would've been helpful for them to know before they got married. They also share some advice.

Anyone who comes from a broken home is maybe terrified, afraid of love and marriage. We talk about why music helps us deal with the pain and messiness of life, and also how music can bring so much beauty, so much joy into the grayness and dullness of our lives. And then they offer some advice to anyone who's afraid of taking risks.

As artists they've had to take a lot of risks, they know a thing or two about. And so they share some of their wisdom that they've gained along the. But honestly, most of all, I'm just excited for you to hear from this beautiful, married couple who prove that love can last and can be beautiful even years into marriage.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 51. We have a big announcement for you guys. We've written a book now I'm teasing it.

Now there's gonna be more info on it later, how you can buy it all sorts of things. But just to let you know, this is a practical guide. This book is a practical guide to help you successfully navigate the pain and problems from your parents' divorce or separation. It's written in a question and answer format with advice on how to handle the most common challenges that people like us face such.

I struggle with low self-esteem. How can I become more confident after my family broke apart, I felt abandoned, unwanted and adequate, and even rejected is something wrong with me. Self-harm is my way of coping. How do I stop? How can I cope in healthy ways instead of unhealthy ways? What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life?

How do I avoid repeating the mistakes my parents made and build a healthy marriage. I feel broken. Like something is wrong with me. How can I heal and feel whole again? What can I do to heal my relationship with my parents? Why does God let bad things happen? Like my parents divorce, how can I discern my calling in life?

When I feel so anxious and uncertain and many. Questions that we answer over 30 questions and answers in this book. And some of the benefits you'll learn how to cope with your pain in healthy ways. Instead of unhealthy ways, you'll become a better, stronger, more virtuous person. If you put the advice in the book into action, you'll learn how to overcome emotional problems.

You'll be given tactics to build healthy relationships. You'll find evidence based strategies that help you. You'll learn how to navigate your relationship with your parents, and you'll learn how to improve your relationship and even heal your relationship with God. And this stuff is so practical. This isn't theory, it's down to earth.

It's common sense advice. That's based on research based on expert advice and the stories that we've heard from people like you, people who come from broken families. Again, it comes out in September more info to follow on this. The next podcast episode, but if you want to get in on the special offers that we're gonna be offering before the launch, go ahead and subscribe to our email list@restoredministry.com.

Again, restored ministry.com. Just scroll to the bottom of the page, put in your email, your name. I'm so excited to share this book with you. We've been working on it for months and the feedback we've gotten from people who've been given an advanced copy. Who've given us feedback on it have been so solid.

So we're really excited to share this book with you more in photo. My guests today are Jenny and Tyler. They met in 2004 at the university of Delaware, and it was there that they started writing songs together and even performing together as friends before long, they started dating. And two years after that, they recorded a record together in Nashville.

And that same year, Tyler asked Jenny to marry him today. They live in Nashville with their three daughters, Jenny and Tyler. Sold over 35,000 albums. They've seen over 20 million streams on apple music and Spotify and played over 1100 concert dates over the past decade of playing music together, their songs have been featured on ABC's pretty little liars, New York med MTV's teen mom, CBC's Heartland.

And YouTube's kid president aside from music, Jenny and Tyler are passionate about fighting human trafficking, which is the modern slavery. In fact, in nearly every show they raise. For the organization, international justice mission. And they say that being a part of something bigger than the two of them has strengthened their marriage.

Absolutely love this couple. They're so real. They're such a beautiful model for married love. I know you're gonna be inspired by them and I know you're gonna love their music if you check it out, but let's not wait any longer. Here's my conversation with Jenny and Tyler,

Jenny and Tyler. Thank you so much for coming on the. Thanks for having us. Yeah, man. Thank you. I've been a fan of yours for a while. Like I mentioned when I was back in college in Steubenville, um, my roommate went to your concert and he's like, you gotta listen to these guys. And so I did and I just, yeah, love your music.

You both are really an inspiring couple and that's something that's always, uh, really stuck with me. Just seeing the way that you love each other. And I'm sure you guys aren't perfect. I'm sure you have your flaw, but, um, you should see us fight now. No but yeah, but you guys, it's so inspiring, especially as someone who comes from a broken family who just didn't see marriage go well, uh, it's really inspiring to see a couple who can, you know, build a, a beautiful marriage and make love last.

And so that's why I was so excited to, to talk to you, cuz I think everyone in our audience is so hungry for that. We wanna. Bill loved it last. We wanna not repeat what we saw in our parents' marriage. And so I I'm psyched to, to talk with you guys. I wanted to start with your story. How did you meet? Tell us?

Well, we met at the university of Delaware back in 2004, so we're. Getting old, but it's okay. um, we, yeah, we met through a campus ministry, the Baptist student ministry on a bus that was taking students from campus to a local church. I sat behind Tyler and he was super friendly and turned around and started talking to me.

And I ended up getting involved in that Baptist student ministry, which he was already part of. So we started hanging out a ton. Pleading worship together, performing writing. And it just like, there was a friendship that, you know, turned into a dating relationship and the musical aspect of things, and it was kind of like a never look back sort of.

Sort of relationship my life. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I don't have anything to add. that's beautiful. No, no, I love it. And it's, it's cool that you guys were able to start that friendship first. I think, especially just in our dating culture today, it's not always possible. Especially if you're like a professional in the world, a lot of times, like the only time you might be exposed to, uh, someone is through maybe a dating app or, or going out on dates, maybe your friend groups aren't together.

So it's awesome. You guys had that at that point in your life? Yeah, I, we say now, like, I don't know how people. Do the dating thing anymore. I agree meeting in college was such a gift because I can't imagine having to do all the online stuff. And I know it works out for people, but I'm very grateful that I'm even just grateful that texting wasn't a thing.

When we started dating, like nobody was texting, we had to meet up or like talk to each other on the phone. And I'm grateful that that. That was what was going on when we, when we met each other. I hear you. I hear you. I, uh, I wanna fast forward a little bit. So you guys, how long have you been married at this point?

Um, it'll be 14 years in about two and a half or three weeks. Yeah. On the 30th of June. Yeah. Yep. End of the month. Congratulations. And that's just amazing. It's such a big, that's crazy. seriously. 15 years. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. So what, what lessons, uh, have you learned after that many years in marriage that maybe you wish you would've known earlier that would've been helpful?

Before you got married for me, it's seeking to understand the other person, uh, like really understand, figuring out where they're coming from. Like yeah. What is causing them to say this right now? Could it be X, Y, and Z that they've experienced? And just like, how is, how is that making them feel at this moment?

I struggle with empathy, man. And Jenny has always been better. With empathy than I have. Mm-hmm . And so that's something I'm, I'm learning, I'm wanting more of, yeah. To like the scripture actually talks about like trying to under like live in an understanding way. And I think for me, that's not just, it, it takes a lot of listening and not, uh, having anything.

Kind of in the back of my head as a response, like you're saying this right now. So this is my defense because I'm, I don't know if you do engram stuff, but I'm, I think I'm a seven wing eight. So I've got this like challenger wing that I, I wanna be defensive. I, I don't wanna li my natural response is I don't wanna listen.

I don't wanna understand where she's coming from and I wanna just defend how I am, right. Or how, how I think I'm right. And so, uh, really fighting against those tendencies in myself. Um, and then, and again, just seeking to understand Jenny's perspective. I wish I had implemented that, like from day one, I feel like I'm J it's, it's almost 14 years of marriage and, and I'm just learning that mm-hmm , which is so sad, but yeah, I feel like on top of that forgiveness, um, yeah, forgiveness is just.

It's a daily conversation. Uh, if it's, if it's not daily, it's almost daily. Oftentimes it's more than once per day. Uh, we're we're speaking with the language of, I screwed up in this way. I did this, like, I really did this. I chose to do wrong against you and will you please forgive me? Hmm. Um, and our kids do it and it's more than like, I don't even want to hear, I'm sorry.

Most of the time for my kids, I just want to. Will you forgive me and yeah, I, I mean, I'm sorry. It helps sometimes, but , but it's getting kind of right. Getting reconciled, um, has always been part of our relationship mm-hmm and I feel like, because we've had that, we that's why we're in the place we are today.

Yeah. We, we definitely, I there's the. I don't even know. Is it from the Bible that, do you not let the sun go down while you're angry? Or is that just something somebody told me that I was, I think it's it's, it's from it's from the Bible. I mean, I think that has always been like, we don't go to bed angry.

We really don't or if we do, I mean, I mean, we've been in bed and we've been angry, but we've like always been like. We don't go to sleeping. Yeah. We're at least like it's not resolved. Yeah. Like, or somewhat resolved. Like, will you please forgive me? I I'm sorry. Or, or it's like, we're in enough of a good place.

like, maybe it's not all over. Yeah. But like, we're not, you know, just, yeah. We're not feeling totally separated or something. I think that's a big thing. And the, the seeking to understand, I, I think that's so important. You have to. being married is just giving so much grace and asking for so much grace. And then when I think about something that I kind of wish I'd heard before we got married, I think we I've, we've found, especially since having kids, our, our oldest is about to be eight.

You really have to fight for time together and make that just like such a. Huge priority. Yeah. Like don't let that slip away. Cause in the early years of being married, it won't probably be as hard to be like, oh, we've got a date night or we do all this stuff together. But as it gets, as it gets, um, as you are married for longer and longer, there's a tendency to just well with kids or with life or whatever.

Well, okay. with kids, especially in our life. It's just so easy to focus on everything else and feel like roommates instead of being married. And I think that could probably happen even without kids just getting comfortable and not prioritizing like really growing the relationship. I think you can get a little complacent maybe.

Absolutely. And complacency just is the worst. It, yeah. Never leads to something good ever. I've I've never seen it lead to something good, but that, that advice is fantastic. And I heard a quote recently when it comes to like listening and understanding. So like you were talking about, and Jenny, like you touched on as well, listening is not waiting your turn to speak.

It's really? Yeah. Just it's really just listening to reflect, not to refute and yes, that's been something that I am still trying to learn. to be honest with you guys. Yeah. It's, it's hard. It's really hard. Cuz I think, you know, especially when you're talking about something that's difficult. It can be so easy to just get defensive and so easy to just throw up walls and, uh, want like you, like you guys said wanna be right.

Instead of wanting to kind of resolve it as a team and reach whatever, you know, solution that you're trying to, to get to. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, we happen to be right by our bookshelf. So I'm gonna read a quote from the world, according to Mr. Rogers. Nice. Uh, two quotes actually listening is a very active awareness of the coming together of at least two lives.

Listening. As far as I'm concerned is certainly a prerequisite. A prerequisite prerequisite. prerequisite. It's hard to say that word today. It is of, of love. One of the most essential ways of saying I love you is being a receptive listener. And then here's, uh, here's a kind of a paraphrase of that. Um, another quote by him by Fred Rogers listening is where love begins.

Listening to ourselves. Then to our neighbors. Wow. Profound. Mm-hmm I know, dude, Mr. Rogers, Mr. Rogers, see, do we even need to add anything to that? trusty. Let's just let's end the end, the podcast now and, uh, try to live that out. Yeah. Yeah. And for anyone who accused keeping track and maybe judging all of us, um, that was, uh, Ephesians 4 26 is where it says not to let the sun go down on your anger.

So just in case anyone's judging I'm like, was that in there? I think it's , it's good in there. Nice work Googling that maybe . Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have that memorized just in case anyone's judging me. Okay. Um, but no such good advice. And I, I was curious also, uh, what advice would you give to a young person who comes from a broken family?

Who's maybe afraid of love. They're afraid of intimacy. They're afraid of. Marriage cuz they just don't want it to end the way that they saw their parents' marriage and they, they may even doubt that love could last in the first place. So what advice would you give to them specifically? You wanna go, man?

Uh, I know what I wanna say. You, you do what you, since you really know right now, what I'd like to say to you or to whomever, uh, happens to be in that situation and have that background is. There are so many false definitions of love out there. And I feel like the first thing that I need to do is look at what true love is.

And for that, I go. To the scriptures. Uh, and this is an older, maybe an old school language type of version, not as old as, as some, but it still says it. Well, it says, uh, love is patient. Um, and that word patient means long suffering. It means that you are okay with being in pain for a long time. So that's how that is the first.

Adjective use of love that it is patient or long suffering. The second is that love is kind, and I feel like we could stop there, uh, kind of like we did with Mr. Rogers quotes. Like if, if you see a love and if you experience a love that suffers for a long time, so experiences a lot of pain and still gets through it and still continues to love.

And if that love is kind. So not harsh. I'll continue. When you see a love that does not envy or boast, like when you see a love that, um, I think we all struggle with envy to some extent. Definitely. Um, it's like when we compare ourselves, when we. When I compare my body with someone or my voice or my talents or my money or my possessions, like any, when I do that, it makes me a bitter person and it makes me a, uh, unhappy person.

So love doesn't envy. It doesn't, it doesn't boast. It's not prideful or arrogant. Like it's not conceited. It doesn't have this ego where it's like self consumed. Rather love is looking outward. Like it is, it is looking towards the good of others. And, and it there's this whole definition here. I, I don't even think I'm gonna go through the whole thing, but this, the definition is found in first Corinthians 13, four through kind of four through 13.

And it actually starts a little bit earlier in like context wise. It, it starts or even earlier than that, but, but, but again, patience and kindness. If love can just embody those two adjectives again, man, that is powerful. Love that. And that's love that is not disappointing. Mm-hmm um, and, and it's love that will not be, um, dissatisfying either.

It will actually be a love. Brings a fullness, um, a full kind of life. I think that we all. Long for, for life that is full. And that can last, I want my Marvel movies to last forever, but they only last two or three hours. Like I, you know, I want my, I want concerts to last forever. Yeah. I want, uh, to surf a wave that lasts forever.

I want meals to last forever. Like I love eating oh, me too. Like a good steak or something. It's yes, but I get full and I can't eat more and I get tired and I can't surf more and I have to get sleep, so I can't watch anymore Marvel movies. So like, but those longings are there. And, and the thing about love is that it actually satisfies those longings because.

The love this love that is being spoken of in this passage in first Corinthians 13, is this divine love this, uh, in the Greek agape love that. If that is your, your, your starting place, your definition, your template for real love. Then when you see something that is called love, that doesn't look like this.

You can call it out for what it is and you can say, okay, well, well, I haven't been hurt by love. I've been hurt by something that's called love. That is actually not love at all. Sound good. I'll end. I'll end with that, I guess. And I, I was just gonna add that if, and this, it sounds like very oversimplified or something, but if we didn't have the Lord in our lives, we would not be married anymore.

I mean, I just, I can think of too many things where it would just be like, if I hadn't experienced that kind of forgiveness and grace, I might not be willing to extend it. I don't, I could see things that would. Have totally been like, oh, this isn't worth it anymore. You know, this, this is too hard. Well, I, if I hadn't experienced the, the love of the Lord, I would probably wouldn't be alive right now.

I think. Or at least I might be in jail. um, and certainly we wouldn't be near no, but, but I also mean like if we had gotten. And we didn't have, like, if we both got married and we didn't know the Lord, right. I don't think we would be married. I don't think we'd be married anymore either. Yeah. I just, and that sounds like such a cliche, but I, I really do think it's true, but it's because we've experienced that love that I just talked about the forgiveness of God and his kindness to, to us who have.

Done so many wrongs to him over and over and over and been so faithless to him and cheated on him so many times, uh, with like fill in the blank and he. Is faithful to us, even when we're faithless, he keeps pursuing us and loving us and calling us to himself. And he does it in a kind way. He doesn't do it in a like yeah.

In like a hard kind of mean way. And I think because we've experienced that. It's it's way easier for us. Yeah, not that it's our natural, it's not our, like our default, our default is like, my default is to, to be mean to, to our kids and to be like, why are you doing this again? And blah, blah, blah. But when I think of how God has treated me, it, it softens me up a lot.

And it, um, it helps me to extend that forgiveness and that grace that, uh, Jenny was talking about. Beautiful. Yeah. And thanks for your vulnerability. I know it's most people aren't this open, but it's beautiful. And we can learn a lot from that. I think. And really what I hear you saying is that God's the perfect lover.

He's the perfect spouse. And so we need to model ourselves after him. Because he, he just never gives that. He keeps coming after us, even when we really don't deserve it. We, we don't deserve it. Yeah. He knows we need him and he keeps coming after us again and again and again. And I love what you said about really redefining.

What love is for you. Like you said, there's so many false ideas, especially in your industry, you know, for sure. I'm sure you guys see this a lot. Just all these false ideas of love and music and mm-hmm for me, it was, yeah. It's. Uh, refreshing to listen to you guys because you're actually hitting on the truth of, of what love is and that that's what the research shows.

It shows that if you want a good marriage, you have to purify your idea of love. You need a realistic concept of love. And if you could have that, then you can have a good marriage. But if you're, you know, expecting it to be a fairytale or to look like the notebook, it's not going to, you're gonna be disappointed and you're gonna wanna give up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For. I, uh, also love what you said about love satisfying. I think there's a lot of people in our world and I've struggled with this personally, who walk around believing that my heart will never be satisfied. My heart will never be satisfied. And just hearing that authentic love can do that, especially God's love, but even, even within a marriage or between friends, all the different types of love, it can be satisfying.

Was there anything you wanted to add on that? About how like life giving love can be? Because I think a lot of people, they just see the destruction, they just see the dysfunction and they think. Yeah, this isn't worth it. Mm. Yeah, the word that just popped up in my mind was vulnerability in, in marriage and friendships in our relationship with our kids in even just in like business relationships and acquaintances.

And certainly with our, in our relationship with God, through Jesus, uh, if we are not vulnerable, then there's not a real relationship. I longed for my sister for years, I longed for her to, to just speak. What's true about like what she was going through when we would go out to coffee. And when we would just hang out, I, I was.

But I felt like the last time I had a real relationship with her and she, I mean, it was maybe middle school and then she just passed away last year because she was, she had an eating disorder and, and it was like, sort of like, I was lamenting that relationship for years and years and years. And then finally it was like, it was cut off and, and so it, so it's in a really like, even so love even between siblings.

I think if there's not vulnerability, vulnerability, and then going back to listening that, that there can't be that fullness. That you're want that, that I'm wanting. I think of my best friends. I think like my best friend from college, uh, Joey Gordon, and I think the reason why we're best friends is because I was very vulnerable with him about the deepest and darkest things in my life.

And he was vulnerable with me similarly, and we were able to walk with each other through those things. Mm-hmm . And I think, and that's why that relationship. I could, I could go months without talking to Joey, but we can pick up where we left off because we formed that bond of vulnerability early on. And we chose to, instead of past judgment on each other or say like, You're, you know, I don't, I don't really wanna hang out with you anymore if you've you've done that sort of thing.

We, we decided that, that there's grace there again, grace and forgiveness and, and love can cover that stuff. Like true love can cover over a multitude of. Those violations of, of goodness and, and purpose that, that we've done, that we, all of us have done. And, and it's sad. It's very satisfying. Love that. So good.

I'm so sorry about your sister. It's so hard. And, uh, I, yeah, I know the experience of like losing someone close to you and I think the. You know, going back and thinking, I wish we had this, I wish we had that. And the vulnerability being at the core of it makes so much sense. It, I agree. Like vulnerability has always made my relationships better and made me happier.

And I know Brene brown talks about vulnerability a ton, and she says, vulnerability is the antidote to shame. Hmm. Yeah. And so if, if you feel like, you know, you're just so broken and. Um, you know, that people would despise you. If you just open up to someone who is good, who will you can trust and who will listen to you without judging me?

Just like you said so well, tother, um, that is so freeing it's so freeing, especially after going through life, maybe hiding, um, your vices or hiding things that you're struggling with from your past or whatever it is. Mm-hmm, , it just, it is life giving. It is satisfying, even that in and of. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

I wanna find this quote. Um, but we should keep talking while I have searched for it. yeah, no, totally fine. Yeah. I, I had a question for you guys about just coping with pain in life. So it's obvious, right? It's human nature that we cope with the pain and the problems in our lives and unhealthy ways. That seems to be the default.

And for me, uh, one healthy way of coping though on the flip side has been listening to music. And I, you know, I, I've played a little bit of music, nowhere near the musician level, but that's been helpful too. Now I can't say I totally understand why it's so helpful, but I'm just curious if you guys had any thoughts on that.

Why do you think that music helps us deal with the messiness of life and the pain and the problems that kind of inevitably come our way? I think a lot of it has to do with just knowing that you're not alone and that other people have experienced something. Very similar. That your story while it is unique to you, it's not, it's not something that's so new or out there, like something, no one could ever understand.

There's this song by drew Holcomb called here we go. And there's a line that says music. It makes you feel good. Makes you feel understood. Like you're not alone, not a rolling stone, not the only one on the road. And I think that really is it for me. It's. Wow. Someone else totally gets this and, and they're okay.

you know? Yeah. Um, yeah, it's like a way to be alone, but not be alone. So that I, yeah, for me, music has always been very healing and helpful, and it also helps me experience my emotions when, you know, you wanna dive into that place, but you like just need a little help maybe, you know? Yeah. And suddenly you're crying in the bathtub like, oh, this feels so good.

Yeah. Jenny, you made me think of, you made me think of, um, just how helpful it is. Like there's har a lot of Harvard research on this, like Dr. Susan, David. Wrote an awesome book called emotional agility. And in it, she talks about how important it is to put your emotions into words. And it's actually like a disability when people can't recognize and express their emotions, which leads to frustrations and, and anger in a lot of cases.

So it's like so healthy and good for you to just express, put your feelings into words. And it seems like music, like you said, it does exactly that. So it makes sense why it's a hopeful. Yeah. Yeah. Tell her anything to add to that. Yeah. I don't have anything to add. I do want to kind of paraphrase what I was saying, what I wanted to find that quote that I wanted to find it basically.

So going back to the, the point of vulnerability, the quote was, was way better than I think this is gonna be, but it was basically like the church is comprised of murderers. Rapists pedophiles. People who have done the worst of the worst stuff, and yet they have tasted the love of God and they have received the forgiveness of God by the blood of Christ because of, of Jesus' blood.

And now they are the people in the earth who are going out and sharing. This is who I was. I still struggle with this by the way, but this is who he is, and this is what he's doing in me. And, and that's life right there. There is, there is so much life in not hiding from these, these terrible things that, uh, that, and I'm not saying all of us are, are murderers and, and rapists and pedophiles.

But I'm saying that at a heart, when it comes down to the heart, all of us are no better than any of the worst people we think of, uh, in the world. We're, we're right there with them. Um, Jesus said, if you've gotten angry with somebody and said, you fool, you've, you've committed murder in your heart. He said, if you've lost it after a woman, you've committed adultery.

So we're right there with them and, and we're no better. And so I think that that, that's what the church needs to be is, is a bunch. Not self righteous people, but people who are, are deeply in touch with how screwed up they really are and how beautiful God's love really is that he forgives them through Jesus.

Yeah, that just to, just to add that little part about vulnerability, so good. So, so beautiful. And I couldn't agree more just like as a church we need to yeah. Get better at being real. Like I grew up in a more traditional church and. It was just, it was very much so about, like, I don't know your exterior, which, you know, there's a point to that.

Sure. But yeah, it's just, we, we have to get to the heart and, and when we don't, it's just so damaging because we're just walking around, going through the motions and nothing's actually transforming, which is what you're getting at here. It's like real transformation can happen. Like if you feel broken, If you're addicted to something, if you're doing all these bad things in your life, like God can come into that and he can transform it.

He's the only one who can do that. He can take some really bad, broken, messy, ugly, and make it into something good. Beautiful. It's yes. Incredible. Yeah. And, and to that point, like, My, my whole faith was, was based, was primarily based on desire, uh, when I was 15 and my, one of my best friends died and I was forced to, to look into death and to look into my life and realize that my life had no purpose.

I was trying to fit in and get with girls. And really objectify girls back then was kind of. The tendency of, of the, my high school guy, culture and abuse substances and treat people unfairly. And so this is what, what I was, was in. And I, I knew that there wasn't life there, but it wasn't until my buddy died.

And I really had to start thinking about man, what, what if I die tomorrow? Like, would my. Be worth anything. And the answer was no, the like it, and it that's really what hit me. And then Jesus comes and he says, I have come, uh, that they may have life and have it in abundance. And that is for there's something about that verse that really got me.

And it still, it still gets me like I desire life in abundance. I don't want to live sort of aimlessly and. and come to the end of my life and be like, well, that, that was a waste, you know? And, and so the Lord kind of brought me to himself through that desire and still brings me to himself through that desire.

And then I have to, I have to back up from that and I have to, to ask myself, okay, why do I actually believe this? mm-hmm, like, I, something about this seems true, but is there, is there more than just desire for. For for, is there good reason to believe? And, and I think that's where apologetics comes in.

That's where, uh, a lot of, a lot of study can come in. It just, but, but going back to desire, man, I, I think that we, all of us desire, love, like true love. I think we all desire to be known and to know God. Um, I think we all desire. Like I mentioned earlier things to last forever. Um, good things to last forever.

We don't want bad things to last forever. And so, so like, what is the root of that? If, if you don't know, if you're listening to this, you don't know Jesus. I would dive deep into that. What is the root? And I, I think the root is that God created us for himself, that we have this. This whole, I think Augustine put it like we have this emptiness, this space in our hearts that that cannot be filled.

We try to fill it with so much stuff, but it cannot be filled with anything except God himself. So we were made to know God and to be known by God, going back to vulnerability, to be totally exposed and naked before him. And, and for God to say, I accept. I love you because of what my son Jesus did when he died on the cross.

I, I accept you. And we just have to trust that we just have to trust in that Jesus's death was for us and his resurrection meant that he, he wasn't confined to the grave. And I need that every day. I'm I'm speaking this maybe more for, for myself, cause I need to be reminded. Uh, every day. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's great.

You appreciate yourself and we all get to listen. It's awesome. no, I, I do that a lot on this show. I'm like, yeah, I really need to, to hear this, like probably should follow some of this advice for no, it's it's so true. And one of the things that's really brought me to tears at different points in my life.

It's just like, After my parents separated, just shattered my world and I got into pornography and all sorts of just unhealthy things and sexual sins and other stuff. And, uh, I just felt so empty. And I knew even as a boy, like I was 11, 12 years old at the time, I knew that I wanted to be happy and this stuff wasn't making me happy.

And then I met these friends who, who were Christians. And I was like, wait a. These people are actually happy. Like they have what I want, like, wow, what . So, so then I started to live what egg did and life changed for, for the better. It was amazing. And so thinking back though, um, at different points in my life and like, if I would've kept on that path of doing what I was doing, like my God, like where would I have been?

And it just made me realize that we all have such a capacity for. And it's kind of, it's kind of a dark and scary thing to think about, isn't it it's like we all can become Hitler. We all can become, you know, whoever we do. And so it's, it's so like, like you're saying, if you would've continued on that path, if I would've continued on that path.

Oh my gosh. Where, where would we have been? It's scary. Terrifying to think. And I think it's good for anyone who's tempted to be like prideful or self righteous, like, think about that in your. Yeah. Yeah. And unfortunately it does take a lot of guys going to jail, uh, and being broken down by, by that system to get to that place where they're like, wow, this, this is like, I really can make those decisions.

I really am not any better than Hitler. And that's. That's a hard thing. Uh, I think for our culture to accept, but I've seen the evil in my heart and, uh, I was addicted to porn from an early age. And if I had not been by God delivered from that speaking of porn, I like, I, I don't know, man. I, I might be, I might not be alive.

I , I don't know where I'd be. Uh, I might be in jail, like I said before. And I think the key to that again, is desire because I got to a place where I was so tired and so dissatisfied, um, with porn that, that I, I wanted something real and something of substance and God be began to, uh, to show me that that was himself, but also in showing me that he gave me this hatred of porn, like.

Porn is objective. It's making an object of a human being. It is making, uh, a product of a person and it's, it's totally. It's like going to the grocery store and, and getting food, getting food that is terrible for me and buying it over and over and over again, it's killing me. It's killing part of my, like my emotional health and my soul and what my body certainly.

And, but, but I keep, I kept doing it because it felt like that was the only place that I knew I could get a rush. Um, and it, I, I think I relate to. Drug addicts in that. Um, but God gave me a hatred of it and I feel like that's one of the only ways that, that, or one of the only things that really keeps me from it.

It's not that I'm not tempted by it today, but I know I know what it did to me. And I hate it now so much that it, uh, it's lost. Its it's lost so much of its appeal. Absolutely. It's it's it's shine. It's just not shiny anymore. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's amazing how you can, yeah. Become so different and transform and.

The best way I've heard it put is that porn distorts your ability to love. Cuz like you said, it just teaches you to use another person. And if you want those beautiful things in life, you need to learn to love and it's not easy and yeah, there's so much we can say there, I wanna keep moving. And uh, my wife and I attended one of your virtual conferences or conferences, virtual concerts if you ever wanna do a conference then sweet.

You can as well. But uh, it was, it was amazing. And one of the things that hit me is that music is so life-giving. So it's kind of the other side of the coin that I, the question I asked this is just so life giving. And, uh, my advice to, to my audience here was that if your life feels dull, if it feels bland, add art into it, especially music, it can just bring so much beauty into the grayness of life.

Have you, how have you seen that play in your own life and in the lives of your fans? Man? I think for me, one of the most life giving things is going to a concert. Mm it's just the I'm always, I almost always leave inspired by the performer. Like I wanna write songs after I listen to this. Person's amazing songs and I feel known.

usually like when we go to a show, we have this experience together, or you might go with friends or something and you have this shared experience. I remember going, we saw Mumford and sons back when, like way before they were so huge that you couldn't get tickets. Like it was 2009 or something. Wow. And we saw them at this awesome venue in Nashville.

It's like 1500 people maybe. and I just remember, it felt like everyone, there was a family, like there were certain points of the night where, you know, everyone's cheering over a line and I'm crying and you know, we're standing together. And I just remember thinking, I feel like I'm part of something greater than myself, which is beautiful.

And I'm getting like how, what a privilege to experience something. So. So beautiful. I mean, amazing. Gorgeous. What a privilege and then to be with you. I, I think, yeah, those, those experiences always. Add to the add to the beauty, I guess. And it's, it's almost beyond words, isn't it? Jenny? It's like, mm-hmm, , it's hard to explain.

It's hard to put it into words. And so you actually experience it. Yeah. And me, I feel like music just does that and like Tyler's, um, dad is a, is a choir or was a choir director at like a high school, middle school for years, like 30 years or something. And then when everything went virtual, He's supposed to do choir virtually, right?

Well, that just doesn't work because it's, you're part of like anything that you do, like a sport or being in a choir, like part of what makes it so magical is that you're with another person, like singing in a choir is about singing together and creating something. And you can't experience that on your.

What do you have to say? Yeah. Music is inspirational. Live, live music, especially for me. I think I, I have a variety of, of sources that I can list, like books, sermons, conversations I've had with family with strangers friends, but there's something about live music, even like from a musical perspective. Wow.

I didn't know that core progression could kind of tug at my heart the way that that did like seeing something done really well and lyric like lyrics tied together in a way that I I've never thought. Yeah. It's it's just to revisit what Jenny already said. It's it's very inspir. Couldn't agree more with you guys.

Uh, this next one's kind of hard to explain, but, uh, people who come from broken homes, young people who come from broken families tend to value, uh, security, feeling safe more than maybe most people. And the, the basic reason for that, that we've learned is that our families felt so unsafe so insecure that we just wanna feel safe almost at any cost.

Now, the problem with that is that we might not take good. Risks, especially when it comes to relationships, careers, whatever. Now you guys, you've taken a lot of risks to get where you are today. Uh, it's not easy it's for anyone listening to us. No, it's not easy to become successful artists. And so I'm just curious, what has that journey been like for you guys?

And what advice would you give to someone who's maybe terrified of taking a risk that could lead to something good, but they're just, they would rather play it safe. Hmm. I kind of feel like. I don't know, some of it hasn't felt so risky. like, yeah, like to us, it hasn't felt as risky as maybe it, it seemed.

And I, I think part of that was like when we started making music and when we decided. We're gonna jump into this and make this our full-time gig. And if it doesn't work out, that's okay, but we're gonna give it a shot. We were young. We didn't have a lot of responsibilities and, um, we didn't have like career type jobs.

Like I was working at a gift shop entirely was working at Starbucks. So it didn't feel like we were giving something up. However, I also think that if we hadn't done. If we hadn't taken the risk, I think we would've always kind of wondered if like what it would've been like to give it a shot. Mm-hmm I, I feel like I can't speak to maybe collectively we can't speak to this idea of risk in terms of career.

Because again, I was working at Starbucks. Jenny was working at a gift store. I think our monthly expenses. We're like, if we could make more than $1,500 a month, we could cover everything. And so, so we, we approached touring like, all right, we just have to make 1500 bucks in one month and then we'll be good.

And so I think if we had to give up like a, a more stable job, uh, or, or, or maybe even just a job that we. We really loved. Cause not, I don't think we loved Starbucks and we like, I enjoyed Starbucks, but I didn't like, feel like it was my, my calling. Yeah. I was just thinking though, however, like you had a sales job lined up for after college that we said no to, because the thought was, if I take this full time job, we won't have time for music.

Absolutely. And so it was our way of saying, without saying. You know, music is, is this important to us? So yeah, someone who's, who would be afraid of taking the risk. I mean, that makes so much sense to me, the, the fear there, um, the trepidation, but yeah, I really think if we hadn't done it, we would wonder, and certainly things, you know, things being.

Not as stable for us or feeling a little crazier, trying like, you know, we have four kids now and music is really strange to do with that many kids, like at the level that we do it, which isn't. You say successful, but like success is so relative. It is relative. You're successful to me. Okay. For the difference again, we pay the bills.

Yes, yes we can. And that's about it, you know, like that's where we're at. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, we have more than enough, but I don't know. I think Tyler's like when Tyler mentioned that he's a seven he's, like, which is like the risk taker type of personality. Okay. Yep. He's just always been. Yeah, let's just do it.

Let's let's go for. And I was more of the, I don't know, this might not be a good idea. I mean, that's how pretty much all it's our whole life, all of our bases came that way. We're like, what do you think of one more? Sure. , we're kind of impulsive people. Like what do you think about moving like next month?

Sure. That's fine. Yeah. Whatever. What should we buy this sprinter van? Yeah, actually I already bought it.

Yeah. Tyler did buy a sprinter van without telling me, yeah. Oh, I know. Remember walking out this old, like really dumpy van and I'm looking at it and I was just. I can't believe you bought this. Yeah. I can't believe you bought this, but it, it was fine. Couldn't really undo it at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think for me, it's just like having Tyler kind of driving the, the bus I'm I feel like I'm along for the ride.

And, um, I think I've just also seen that things, they always work out one way or another. I don't know if that's there was any sort of advice in there, you know, I, I think there's, I think there's more in there than you realize one don't buy a van without telling your wife one. Yes, definitely. That, and then also you guys were just, you were willing to fail and that's, I think what terrifies a lot of people it's like, you knew that one possibility to going down this road was that you wouldn't make it.

Yeah. And, and you were okay with that. And that's huge. Like even just accepting that fact, I think is so big. Another thing you said is. What if we don't do it, that's what a lot of people don't consider. They only think about, well, what if I do it? And I lose everything well, what if you don't and you live a life of regret and you go to your grave with the song still inside of you, like yeah.

Throw said. It is terrifying. It is yeah. To, to consider that. And so I think that can be motivating as well. And then another thing you said is just like taking the little steps. That's another lesson in what you, you just explained is like take the little steps in the right direction. You don't need to maybe take that huge leap right.

At first. I mean, sometimes in life you have to take those leaps, but I think if you take those steps, you're gonna be mitigating risk and avoiding maybe some potential huge failure, um, by just doing little bits at a. Yeah, that was awesome that you just said that was all from you guys. Perfect. Very well.

Uh, great summary. You could have just said that cliffs notes version. Love that. No, that, that's what I just learned from you guys. So thank you. Um, in, in closing out, how can people listen to your music, buy your music 10 year concerts? How can they do all that? Yeah, I mean, we're on all of the streaming things like Spotify.

Apple music and all of that stuff, right? Yeah. And then if you really wanna support us, uh, we we're on this thing called Patreon and, uh, for a dollar or, or whatever you wanna give us per month, um, we give you exclusive songs, new songs every month and, uh, exclusive content. Behind the scenes stuff. Um, so that if you, yeah, if you really wanna support us in like a very tangible way, that's, that's a good way to do it, but you could just go on Spotify and create a playlist, too.

Join our mailing list. You can get a free record, a free exclusive record. If you go to Jenny and tyler.com/free we're on Instagram and Facebook. We're not great with the social media. I think we're just like, Too old to keep up with all of the new things that people do. I'm like, what is that? We, we prioritize Instagram and, and Facebook and, and then Twitter's kind of the third one, but Snapchat.

And I'm like, I don't know what that is. I dunno how to use this. Yeah. But, and then we are starting to book. We're hoping to get back into playing some shows and then we just have online stuff that we do too about once a month. So, yeah. Yeah. And that's just, uh, like the tickets to, if you want to come to this show in Maine, in September it's and these online shows, they're just pay what you can.

So again, just like. A dollar or more. We don't want there to be a hindrance from money. We, if you wanna come, we want there to be some kind of transaction so that you care about it a little bit. Uh, cuz we found that free events, people just don't care very much about, but when people give even just a dollar or $5, they seem to care about it.

And, and so that's, that's why we do the pay. What you can thing. Love it. And your website is Jenny and Tyler dot. Yes. Awesome. And you guys, you can find everything that they just mentioned there, and we'll make sure to link in the show notes to, uh, their music, to their Patreon account. If you wanna support them even a little bit goes a long way, guys.

Thank you so much for your music. It's so inspiring. It's so beautiful. Thank you for the example that you've, um, given in, in your marriage. It's more inspiring than maybe you'll ever know. So I really appreciate everything you've done. And for, for being here and spending time with me today. Thank you so much.

This was awesome. Such a pleasure, Joey. Thank you, man.

You can listen to Jenny and Tyler's music, wherever you listen to music or on YouTube even. And if you wanna support them, like they mentioned, you can do that on Patreon for even a dollar or a few dollars a month. And you can just go to patreon.com/jenny. And Tyler patreon.com/jenny and Tyler. And I know it goes a long way for artists.

Who've had so many concerts canceled because of COVID. So if you can help them out, go ahead and do that. And I especially recommend listening to their song. As long as our hearts are beating. As long as our hearts are beating, it's such a beautiful song about love and about marriage. And I won't sing it for you, but here are some of the lyrics.

Tyler sings this part, he says my bride, my bride, I can hardly hold myself. Together this day, this night, I see you as you are, and I never wanna leave. So beautiful again, that that song is as long as our hearts are beating, definitely recommend listening to that. And all those links are in the show notes.

A question for you guys to kind of wrestle with, think about who in your life has helped to convince you that love and marriage can last. Maybe, no one, maybe you haven't had anyone do that, but maybe you have, my advice is either find someone who has a beautiful marriage that you wanna emulate. You wanna repeat, or if you know someone like that build a better relationship with them.

It's so helpful in overcoming your fears about love and marriage to see a real. Living example of how good love and marriage can be. And this has been so helpful for me. So many people that we've worked with at restored have said the same, uh, in the future, we wanna even come out with some sort of a program to help you find a couple like that.

If you don't know them more on that in the future, but this is so helpful. So go ahead, find that couple or reengage with a couple that you know, who just has a really beautiful marriage that inspires you and can teach you how to build love. That lasts again, stay tuned for more info on how to get our new book for special offers, you can join our email list@restoredministry.com.

Again, restored ministry.com. Ministry is just singular. You can follow us on social, especially on Instagram at restored help. Again at restored help is our handle and just keep listening to this podcast. We'll be. Giving you more info on how you can get the book. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 51.

Thank you so much for listening. If you know someone who's struggling from their parents' divorce separation, share this podcast with them. We're really confident that it can help them too. Always. Remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

#050: Why Didn’t You Choose Me? | Holli Lepley

For 40 years, Holli searched for help to heal from the trauma of her parents’ divorce, including 30 years of counseling. But nothing worked. She had all but lost hope when she found Restored. She claims this podcast has been more healing than 30 years of counseling.

Having struggled with depression, anxiety, and suicidal thoughts, she also shared how Restored has “literally saved my life.” If you’ve wondered how Restored can help you or someone you love or lead, this episode is for you. In it, we discuss:

• How her parents’ divorce came out of the blue, which research suggests may be most damaging

• How her dad’s quick remarriage hurt her as much or almost more than the divorce itself

• The sense of loss she felt when she stopped seeing her siblings due to the divorce

Plus, two huge announcements at the start of the show!

Has Restored helped you? Let us know how here.

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Episode 8: The Hardest Part of My Life | Miranda Rodriguez

• Dear Divorce

• Contact Holli

  • dznylandfan@gmail.com

  • Instagram

  • Facebook

• Research

  • Low conflict divorces may be more damaging

  • 1/3 high conflict divorces, 2/3 low conflict divorces

  • Loneliness and Life Satisfaction in Adolescents with Divorced and Non-Divorced Parents

Enjoy the show?

To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

My guest today, struggled for so long to find anyone even among so-called experts who could simply understand how devastating it was for her to experience her parents' divorce and the breakdown of her family. As a 10 year old girl, she did search for help, but she struggled to find it for over 40 years.

And after almost 30 years of counseling, 30 years, she had all but lost hope. When she found restored, she told me that restored in this podcast specifically have been more effective in helping her than 30 years of counseling. And she said, she's just never found anyone saying what we're saying, what our guests have said and what our content has said.

And she really wishes that she would've had this 40 years ago when she was a 10 year old girl and having struggled in her life with suicidal thoughts. She shares how this podcast has literally saved her. So amazing. So humbling, Holly. I know you're listening right now. We're just so glad to be a part of your story for this opportunity to serve you and be a help tact as a guide along your journey.

And you were right. All along. What you went through was traumatic. What you went through was devastating. You deserve your pain to be validated. You deserve for someone to recognize the hurt you've endured so you can heal and finally move past all of this. And if you listening right now, if you're like Holly, if you feel like nothing has worked help you heal from the trauma you've experienced in your family, because of your parents' divorce separation, you're in the right place.

Stick with us. We're here to help you. And if you're someone who's asked the question, maybe you've heard about resort, or maybe you're finding us for the first time. If you've you ask the question is restored actually helping people. And if so, how it's a fair question. Keep listening. You're gonna find out.

It's a very fair question. And I know we have a fair share of skeptics. People who think like, eh, maybe they're not doing such good work. We even have some haters. For example, one woman emailed me. I kid you not, this is not a joke. One woman emailed me. And she said that. She said, please, in no way, go to sleep at night thinking you have helped anyone and are doing a service when it comes down to it.

Again, not a joke. That's a direct quote. And Holly, in this episode shares how effective this podcast and this ministry has been to help her. And it can help you too, as someone who comes from a broken family. And I don't say all this to brag, I just say this to show you that. We can help you and we want to help you.

And by listening what you're gonna get out of this episode, we talk about how her parents' divorce came totally outta the blue, which research actually suggests maybe the most damaging type of divorce. We also speak about the pain. She felt watching her dad show up at the house to go through her mom's things.

While her mom was gone. We hit on how her dad's quick remarriage following the divorce, hurt her as much. And maybe even more than the divorce itself, she touches on the sense of loss. She felt too, when she stopped seeing her siblings due to the divorce. In other words, not only did she lose her dad in, in a way, both of her parents, uh, she also lost her siblings too.

And she shares kind of an interesting experience where she went to this divorce support group, thinking it would be for her. But it wasn't for children of divorce. It was just for, uh, married couples or married people, I should say, who wanted to get a divorce. And so she quickly realized when she was at this meeting, that it wasn't for her.

And there was just no mention of the kids at all. Um, but she did stick it out and she tells that story. And then we also talk about other struggles that she's dealt with. Like thinking that her husband who's been so good to her, will eventually leave her and dealing with the silence from her family, from her parents, especially for the past 40 years.

No one talked about this very real and painful problem that she's dealt with that has been in the family. And finally, just her wrestling with the question. Why wasn't I worth it for you guys? To work it out. Some just cuts straight to the heart. And also in addition to all that, we've two big announcements from us at restored.

We'll get into those right away. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host joy. Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 52 big announcements. Like I said, first off my wife and I have welcomed our daughter into the world.

Her name is Lucy. She's the best. She's beautiful. Uh, her daddy's heart already belongs to her. We are obsessed. And if you wanna see some photos of her, just follow us on Instagram at restored help. Again, that's at restored help and you can see some pictures of Lucy on. I. Next we've written. Our first publication will be coming out in September of this year.

It's a practical guide to really help you successfully navigate the pain and the problems from your parents' divorce or separation. And it's in a question and answer format. It's a short format, so it's a quick read, but it really gives you practical guidance on different questions and different situations, different challenges that people like us face such as.

Everyone acts like my parents' divorce. Isn't a big deal. Is it wrong for me to feel hurt by it? What can I do to cure my loneliness? How can I better deal with my anxiety? What's your advice for navigating the holidays and other life events? How do I overcome my fear of love, relationships and intimacy? I, I feel broken.

Like something is wrong with me. How can I heal and feel whole again? And why does God let bad things happen? Like my parents divorce, there's over 30 questions in this booklet for you again, to offer really practical guidance so that you can successfully navigate these really challenging things that really no one offers us any guidance on.

And so what we're trying to do is really create what we wish we would've had years ago and we've spent months doing it. We're so excited to release this to, to give this to you guys, to offer. To you. And when I say booklet, what I mean again is a, a quick read. It's not a brochure, not a pamphlet, but it's really a quick read.

It'll be gosh, 150 pages, uh, or more. And that will come up in, in September. Like I said, I'm just teasing it right now, but we'll have more info to come. We'll have info on our website. And if you wanna learn more about the booklet and about some of the special pre-order offers that we'll be, uh, offering before the launch of the book, just subscribe to our email list, go to restored ministry.com again, restored ministry.com.

Ministry is just. Singular and just scroll to the bottom of the page. You'll see a form. You can put your name in, put your email, answer a quick question, and then you'll be on our email list. And whenever the book goes live, you'll hear about it. And we'll give you some special offers, uh, through that email list as well.

Uh, you can sign up there on our homepage on the website, or if you wanna sign up at, uh, the show notes page ever, sword ministry.com/fifty, the form's on there too. We wanna make it easy for you guys to sign up for email list so you can get those special offers again. So excited to share this with you.

We've been working hard on this. We want it to be topnotch for you all, and I'm excited to hear your feedback. So, so stay tuned in the next podcast episode, we'll be talking more about it. We're gonna give you a sneak peek of some of the content, and I give you an opportunity to get some of it for free as well.

And it'll be very reasonably priced. We wanna get it out to as many people as we can, especially young people, teenagers, and young adults who really need this guidance. Honestly, this is what I wish. I would've had as a young person, just kind of a, a manual playbook on how to deal with those unique challenges that people like us face.

So keep an eye out for that. My guest today is Holly lly. She has been a child of divorce for 40 years. And then as the youngest of five children, she was only 10 years old when her parents divorced. The divorce really defined her life. Not only as a child, but as a grown woman too, which you'll hear her talk about in the interview and following the divorce.

She suffered from depression and anxiety for 40 years. And she spent countless years in counseling trying to overcome being a, a child of divorce going through this trauma. And she says that nothing worked until I found ReSTOR. Finally, people who understood how I felt and gave this. A voice at 50 years old, I'm learning.

It's not too late to find peace within the pain. Thanks to ReSTOR. So beautiful and so humbling, honestly. And she, she is married. Holly is married to an incredible patient man. She says, uh, they'll, they'll celebrate 31 years in November this year. So beautiful. They've three, uh, children together and a daughter-in-law and the ages range from 27 to 17.

So pretty young family and Holly, uh, promised herself that her children would never have to say that they were children of divorce. She didn't wanna repeat what she experienced in her family. And she's kept that promise. And she's very proud of that. She recently retired from the airline industry and she currently works for the state of Utah.

She and her husband are planning to move to Florida in a few years when they retire and all of her children will be joining them. Beautiful and amazing. So without waiting any longer, here's my conversation with my friend, Holly,

Holly, welcome to the show. It's great to have you. Oh, thank you, Joey. So much for having me. I've been looking forward to this interview and I, I'm excited to hear your story, so let's go right to it. Take us back in time. Take us to the day when that 10 year old you, uh, learned that your parents were separating and divorcing, um, what happened?

How did you react to it? Yeah, absolutely. This is actually one of the very few days that I have any memory of. Um, I actually don't remember a whole lot of childhood, to be honest with you. I think that's more of a chosen way that I've dealt with a lot of this, but mm-hmm , this is of course one day that I just remember everything about that hour or so of yeah, just my parents sitting myself down with sister.

And just kind of my dad, I remember him saying that he was gonna be moving out and leaving, and I just remember not understanding any of it. Mm-hmm because growing up to that point, I don't remember a, you know, any fighting, any confliction, things like that. I don't remember any of seeing that mm-hmm so I was very much taken aback to what was going on.

Of course, I remember crying and, and trying to understand. but at 10 years old, it was just not something that I could comprehend without any forewarning. Mm-hmm , you know, my, my parents just didn't, I don't know if they chose not to fight in front of us or just to kind of keep us out of it. So it just came out of nowhere.

Mm-hmm really, it was totally something I wasn't. Expecting at all. So, um, I don't know if you want me to go into a little backstory of before getting there sure. To that would be great. That point. I mean, only because it just, it feels almost like I had two lifetimes. Mm. One prior to this and, and then one after the one prior to was, you know, of course my childhood home that I remember, um, I'm the youngest of five children.

I believe two of my siblings were at this point, moved out and married and there was only a couple of us left. And I remember, you know, that time being very happy, very, you know, my mom was home full time, great memories of the neighborhood, the whole thing. And then all of a sudden we just had to leave and we had to move to this different house and never understood why.

Of course, I, I know now why, but. Back then I never knew. And that was really traumatic for me to leave. And then we got settled into this new house and then I learned he would be leaving. Hmm. So it was kind of like getting hit by a brick wall really? yeah. You know, that I never saw coming at all. So it was really hard to deal with that.

And I know you and I have talked that I grew up, um, as a member of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. Mm-hmm , which most people know, know us as Mormons and learn from a young, young age, families are forever. That's all we ever learned. Families are forever. You know, this is, this is the plan.

And then to be hit by. Well, now dad's moving out and we're getting divorced was just, I, I can't even explain what that felt like, cuz I didn't understand. I don't, you know, how does that happen? Mm-hmm even at this age, I'm not sure. I'm really great at explaining that, but that was really difficult to be at that age.

And just be told. Okay, he's leaving. And then he, he left that night. Oh, wow. And that was it. Hmm. And then the new life started. It was, it was really, um, hard. I mean, I appreciate probably that. I, I didn't see the fighting going on. However, there's bad sides to that as well. You don't see the conflict, you never learn how to resolve it, which I never saw those things.

And in the era that I grew up, which would've been, you know, the seventies, eighties, You, you didn't talk about those things. Our parents didn't talk about those things. So it was something that was never discussed, never sat us all down and said, here's what's going on. Uh, we're not getting along or anything.

And so even post, uh, divorce, it still was never talked about. So I never understood or came from any understanding as to why that all happened. All of a sudden, I just knew that dad was gone and he still lived close by, but. It was like two different worlds that I didn't know how to internalize and we never talked about it.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah, no, that, that's such a heavy thing to carry with you. And not only did the foundation of your family fall apart, but like you said, this belief that you had that families are forever, which is really how it should be. That was shattered too. Cuz mm-hmm this reality in your life seemed to contradict that belief.

And so I'm sure it made you. Everything. And I remember that was certainly the, the case for me. And I remember, uh, yeah, I was 11 years old. So just a year older than you were when my parents separated. And I remember we were with a family friend or maybe a relative. I can't remember that portion of it, but I remember driving by our house and seeing like police cars there.

Um, nothing like. Violent or anything like that had happened. But I think there was a just conflict between my parents, that my mom had chosen to get the police involved. Yeah. And so immediately that was like the first exposure. I think that I had to the fact that something was happening, it came totally out of the blue, just like you said.

And so then I, I mean, a million question marks went up in my head, like what is going on at our house. And then later was when my mom sat us down and broke the news that, uh, dad will no longer be living with us. In fact, he was already gone and they were gonna get divorced. So totally relate to you. And there's research that actually says, you probably know this already, but there's research that says that, uh, those divorces that are low conflict, especially the ones that come out of the blue can actually be more damaging for people like us because, um, it's totally unexpected.

It's totally unexpected. Mm-hmm and things appear to be fine. So then we go through life thinking, well, what isn't gonna fall apart or what. Won't fall apart at a moment's notice. And so we kind of have to watch our back constantly thinking that, well, there's a disaster on every corner. Sure. And, and I think it's so important to know that as a child, I didn't learn to deal with those conflicts and that open communication was just not a thing.

You know, we're just not gonna talk about it. Yeah. And unfortunately, in my situation, the let's not talk about it has lasted for 40 years. Hmm. And it's only been recently that I've started asking my mom some questions about then and reasons as to why, and my adult self can understand. And I think of myself like how, I don't know how I would've explained that to my children, but asking questions.

Now I understand a little bit more each time I, I talk a little bit, but it's been 40 years of no discussion, which, you know, is really hard because I went from having this little family of the seven of us, um, you know, going to church every Sunday, doing everything that we're supposed to be doing to just, it felt like a, you know, like a, like a dam just breaking and that water just opening up and destroying everything.

Even, even my parents, it changed who they were. And I don't know if maybe that's just cuz it, let them maybe hurt their true colors. Come out a little bit. I mean, I certainly don't wanna speak for. and this is in no way judgemental to them, but sure. Um, you know, things changed very quickly in our house.

Although of a sudden my dad would start just showing up at my house and he would be going through my mom's things. Mm-hmm um, when just the kids were there, mm-hmm, like, just when I was there, I, I didn't know how to deal with that. I knew it was wrong. I knew something. This was not right to have him in here going through her things.

But again, we don't talk about it. Thankfully there, there really was only one time at the, it was a pretty pivotal time that he had shown up. And I, I guess he wanted to talk with her. Ended up locking her in the bathroom and she ended up putting her hand through the window, trying to get out. Mm. I was home and I, again, that's another thing that I remember every moment of happening.

Mm-hmm , mm-hmm I remember being outside the door, yelling and crying and, and then her coming out and she had up stitches all up and down her hand, you know, it's very traumatic. Mm-hmm to see that. And as a 10 year old, who, I just don't even know where it came from. These are two people. I, I don't know all of a sudden these aren't the same two people who've been raising me for the past 10 years.

So it was very, very confusing. Yeah. And then my, my dad remarried very quickly, which was probably almost. More difficult, if not as difficult as the divorce itself. Sure. That was just a huge, huge part of what defined the rest of my life. And, and that's what it did. It defined, you know, 40 years of everything I did every single day mm-hmm , you know, so everyone who you talk to, I commands so much for having that strength to speak up because having gone through this now, here's my dad who has chosen another family.

Yeah. You know, how do, how do you deal with that? I, I still don't know how you deal with that and it's yeah, it's constant. He just remarried so fast that I just knew every time he made that choice. Choosing the other family, it took all of my self worth away that I wasn't more important than they were.

Right. Cuz he was choosing them over you. Yes mm-hmm and, and all the time mm-hmm and unfortunately, you know, that's continued all through my life, but that was really a pivotal pivotal thing for me. Was that being remarried so quickly. I, as a child, I don't know, you know, I'm barely getting over if they're all they're not married anymore, but.

Yet he's marrying someone else. That was really hard. Yeah. It just kind of snowballed from there. You know, mm-hmm because everything I knew was gone, I mean, I, I no longer had a family. My siblings, unfortunately, being older than I was chose sides. Um, you know, with one parent or another, for whatever reason, I don't again have any judgment on them.

And cuz their experience was very different than mine. Mm-hmm I, I can't have any judgment on what they did, but all of a sudden they were all just gone. So I had no family left my mom now all of a sudden had to go back to the workforce because we were just left. So I was used to being home. You know, with mom home.

And she would be there every day when I got home from school and dinner was always made. And you know, that picture perfect kind of life that you think of. Yeah. Obviously I didn't know as a child, that that's really not the way it was, but sure. In my eyes, that's how it was now of a sudden she had to go back to work.

Um, I became a latchkey kid now who would have to come home alone every day. Didn't know when she'd be able to come home. So everything fell apart. Um, I stopped seeing siblings cuz they kind of would chose my dad's side. So the older siblings kind of went with him. The younger two of us kind of went with my mom.

So that just split everything completely up. We had to move again because we could no longer afford to live where we were. So we had to move into a very small little, two bedroom. I had to share a room with my mom kind of a thing just to make ends meet. And that was really hard. I had to change schools, which all of a sudden I'm going to a school that really wasn't the safest school.

Um, so I started seeing things. In my, what we like to call the Utah bubble that we live in. I had some things I had never witnessed before and now sudden I'm seeing this kind of different stuff and that was, it just felt all confusing. Yeah. How is someone that young supposed to cope with all of this?

It's it's impossible. Mm-hmm with, unless, you know, maybe you have like incredible support. Maybe you can get through it, but it's all, it's all about surviving it. It's it's just not supposed to be this way. It's so damaging. And it always baffles me how people will say, well, well, children are resilient.

They'll be fine. Mm it's. You know, the divorce isn't that big of a deal. Yeah. But then we just constantly hear stories from people like you. Most of us, most people like us are not willing to even talk about this because we're afraid of hurting our parents. Mm-hmm we, we wanna protect them. We love. And so yes, when you really look into it though, and that's what this entire podcast has been about, um, it is really, really damaging.

And like you said before, like how is a 10 year old supposed to wrap their head around this? And, and then in the years that followed, of course, how are you supposed to deal with all these changes and the, the additional trauma that's happening, uh, in your life? It is a lot mm-hmm I mean, thank. We're not doomed to stay there, but it, it is a ton when you're going through it.

Well, and, and unfortunately, I mean, I, I did get stuck there right in my brain for 40 years have been stuck there. Hmm. When I say that, that defined me, it definitely 100% defined, most everything I've done to be 50 years old and still haven't been able to deal with this is just crazy to then hear other people say children, not resilient.

You know, like, no, absolutely. No. They're, they're not always resilient. And if they go through something like this and I've been taught for so long, we just don't talk about it. That that has to go somewhere. The pain had to go somewhere. And so that frustrates me when I hear the same thing that kids, kids will handle it, they can make those changes.

And, um, you know, I don't always agree with that. And that's, that's, it is kind of a hard thing too, to be an adult child of divorces that a lot of people really just don't agree with position on things like that. And so you're constantly throughout your adult life, at least the experiences I've had been made to feel that you're wrong.

Like I'm wrong. I shouldn't feel that way. I should just get over it. Yeah, I should have just let it go. And I get that a lot from adult to adult telling me that as well. Mm-hmm , you know, I, I, this is just a little funny side note is I at one time, I think I was some. 40 35 maybe and found a group of people who needed help with going through divorce.

And the way I read the description was it would be something helpful to me. Mm-hmm so I went to this a group and it was probably 10, 12 people. Well come to find out it was a group of married people going, trying to figure out divorce. And I'm the only person in this group of people who is a child of divorce.

Oh man. Awkward. Right. Yeah. And so the question is you stay, do you go, where do you do? And I thought, well, maybe I could benefit a little from hearing where they're coming from. Sure. Unfortunately, all it did was make me more frustrated because it was just all about them and the angers they had between each other.

Mm-hmm and not even thinking about the kids. Wow. Yeah, it was a, it, I stuck it out for the six weeks or whatever. And, um, I, I was forthcoming and saying, look, I'm, I'm not divorced. I'm am a child of a divorce though. Um, so I, maybe I have something that will help you. I don't know, but it was very different to sit and listen to that side of it as well.

So I try not to be judgemental people going through that, or, you know, not every case is the same, but sure. I would hope that for a few minutes that people could hear our side too. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, there certainly are cases where it's unavoidable because maybe there's violence or there's drugs or there's of course, stuff like that.

But most cases aren't like that. And of course, statistically. You know, holds up the estimates out there that maybe 30% of divorces are like that, where there's like violence or abuse, danger, things like that. And then 70% are just where the most common reason for divorce is irreconcilable differences.

That's the most common quoted reason for divorce. And so it's, so this fascinating that in that force support group, I guess we'd call it. Yeah. There's no mention of the kids, which is very, um, indicative of, of kind of how we approach this as a culture overall. It's like the parents, you know, obviously there's issues, I'm not making light of that.

There's some real problems that need to be solved and you know, I'm not passing judgment on everyone. Who's struggling cuz that happens so often in marriage. Of course. Um, but, but yeah, just the complete, I guess, forgetfulness of the kids, it's really sad. Yeah. Yeah. And I, a big, huge part of that for me was one I always questioned why wasn't I worth it?

Mm. Why wasn't I worth it for you guys to work it out? What was so bad that. I wasn't worth the trouble to fix this. And that is something that has stuck with me for my entire life. And I've struggled a lot with insecurity and feeling like I'm just not, I'm not worth it, you know? And I know I've discussed with you.

I, I went into depression. Which I've suffered with for a long time. Mm-hmm and that included suicidal thoughts, which, you know, my family has no idea. I went through that still to this day. They don't know that I suffered with that. Wow. Because it's not comfortable to talk about with somebody who doesn't understand and you know, I'm coming from a place where neither of my parents were, or excuse me, their parents were not divorced.

Mm-hmm your grandparents. Okay. My grandparents were all married till they passed away. Even my husband, his parents, same thing. So none of them understood what that felt like. So it was very difficult for me to understand why wasn't they enough to keep the family together, you know? and that's something I've dealt with through my marriage, with everything.

And I still, to this day, I don't have a relationship with my dad at this point. Um, because I've spent, you know, 40 years dealing with not feeling or wanting the question answered as to why didn't you choose me? Because that's really how I feel is you, you are not choosing me in everything that you're doing.

Whereas my mom, she stayed with us. She was there for us. She financially put herself out there for us. She didn't remarry till after I got married and said that she wouldn't. Because we were more important. Wow. So it's kind of funny that I feel not so much that way with my mom, but a hundred percent with my dad as to why don't you choose me?

You know, even when I got married, even a situation that had to do with my own wedding, where there was an issue with me not wanting his wife on my wedding invitations, because she's not my mom mm-hmm and that's honestly how I felt like I want, my mom deserves 100% to be on there. And my dad, those are my parents.

Mm-hmm and yet my invitations showed up printed with her on there. Mm. So it's, it's just been, I have story after story, after story of that, of not, you're not choosing me and I don't get that. So especially when I had kids, it even brings it up more. Mm-hmm , that's kind of where my core belief of myself comes from.

is why wasn't I enough? Yeah. And that's such a great question. And it's such a debilitating question because we might never receive the full answer for that, which is yeah. Just so hard. And I'm so sorry for everything you've been through it. Every thing you're talking about, I'm like, yep, yep, yep. Yep.

Mm-hmm I just totally relate to what you're saying. Even down to some of the details, like, you know, your dad showing up to go through your mom's things when she wasn't around that, that happened with my family too. So, so many of the things that you said and just how defining this has been like, even, even as a young teenager, uh, just a few years removed from the separation.

I just knew I'm like, that thing was so pivotable for me. mm-hmm and yet, for some reason, no one was talking about it, which is baffling. Like yeah. You know, just like you there's so much silence around this problem. And, uh, yeah, so man, it just breaks my heart that you've had to struggle like this for 40 years.

Yeah. And there's been just no one there to give you the help that you needed. It shouldn't be this way. It just shouldn't be this way. No, it shouldn't. And you know, um, it's not because I didn't look for help because I did. I mean, like I told you, I suffer from depression. I, I reached out, I've gone to counseling for 30 years almost, um, with counselors trying to help me and none of them got it.

And I've had more than one counselor. I've had several and you know, and I would always try to make sure I researched and kind of went with who I felt would be comfortable with my situation, my beliefs, the whole thing. Sure. And not to say that they weren't great counselors that had nothing to do with it.

And maybe there were things that they just couldn't say, but in all of those years of counseling, I have never been affected the way I was listening to your podcast. Hmm. Because for the first time in ever, and I literally can say ever there was somebody else who was saying what I had felt and understood that, and those counselors never, they couldn't do that.

They could say, oh yes, you have depression. Um, you're sad. You're, you know, you need to reconcile things. They'd give me books to read nothing helped because I never heard the words spoken. Like you guys have spoken them. To where I can. I almost just wanna jump up and be like, yes. Finally, somebody understands what it feels like to live through this and know how painful it is.

It's I'm not, I'm not kidding with that. That's not even an over exaggeration of the 30 years I've had the counseling has not helped me as much as this has wow. Ever because, and I, I think it's just because it's, nobody has understood. Whereas you, when I know there's other people hurting the same way I am, it's just feels more like, okay, you get it.

Mm-hmm, a lot of it too. Maybe has to do with trust. Like I trust how you feel because you've lived it. Mm. Yeah. I've had a lot of problems with trust in my lifetime and getting close to people. Um, because you know, they're gonna leave mm-hmm right. I mean, yeah, if you let yourself get close to someone, they're just gonna walk away from you cuz that's what happens.

And so I never let people close mm-hmm um, I always would just kind of keep them away from me enough, but it, it almost feels like you're an outsider looking in mm-hmm it almost feels like an out of body experience all the time where I'm an outsider looking into other people going, wow, that must feel great to have that family.

Right. But I'm so removed from it that I can never let myself be part of that. Wow. Like I don't honestly, at my age I have a hard time really understanding how people have such close friends. Mm-hmm , it's such an odd thing to me to have people that you can just fill a hundred percent of yourself with.

Because I've never had that. Totally. So to hear you guys speak about it is just like this light bulb moment for me. And I think I've told you this, but I still deal with those kind of thoughts, the bad thoughts when things happen. I go straight to that dark place. I think anybody who's been there understands, oh yeah.

That I go from good to, okay. Something's happening. I'm going straight to that dark place where I don't need to be here anymore. And now when that happens to me, I go and listen to your podcasts and I can feel like there's people who understand. And that's all I think I've ever looked for for the past 40 years.

And I've never had that, which don't you think is amazing that I've never come across that it is. And I'm just standing here speechless. And I know, you know, we've talked for like outside of this show about your story and, um, it brought me to tears because. It's just should not be this way. And I'm so glad that we've been able to help you and, and you know, more than just me, of course, it's my team and it's the guests and who've come on this show, but it's so, uh, I'm so glad, uh, the same time, I'm really sad that it's taken this long for just something to be helpful to you because everyone else is telling us like, Oh, just move on and you'll be fine.

But really what you were looking for, like you said, is some sort of validation, some sort of affirmation saying, there's nothing wrong with you for feeling this way. In fact, you're it's right. Like you're feeling the right way. Given the circumstance that your family just was destroyed, your dad chose another family over you and all the other things that followed.

And it's just tragic that there, and you're not alone. That, that's the thing that's crazy about this too. It's like Holly, you know, obviously it's amazing. Like you're so articulate listening. I could listen to you talk forever, seriously. and you're so articulate with these experiences that you've had. Um, yet there's so many people out there who either won, they lack the awareness.

They can't even put this stuff into words, um, or two, even if they can, um, like, like you found for, for most of your life, there's just nothing out there to help them. And yeah. You know, it can end very badly, like you're saying, even with the suicidal thoughts, which as, you know, people like us are, were more likely to attempt suicide statistically.

And it's just so tragic that there's been so little done for people like us. So thank you for being part of the solution, being on the show. And I, I know this episode's gonna give a lot of people, a lot of hope, you know, the biggest thing was, and I, and I've been married for close to 31 years now. Mm-hmm and I went into it very much.

Like divorce is not an option. So whoever is with me, it. It's not even on the table. So one thing I, I did get very lucky with my partner. Um, my husband is a just amazing man that never gave up on me as much as I tried to make him give up on me. Wow. I tried and I tried to push him away and I walk away and I just kept waiting for the day he was gonna leave me.

Mm. Because that's what husbands do. Right. That's honestly, I can tell you that's how I felt. Yeah. And I will be a hundred percent truthful and I've shared this with him. That it's only been until recently that I'm finally believing that he's not going anywhere. Wow. And we're celebrating 31 years together this year.

Well, married, we've been together 32. Um, and I got married very young. I got married two weeks after I turned 20. Okay. Yep. Yep. So very young and all 30 years I've just been waiting and he, he tells me all the time, I'm not going anywhere. You are stuck with me, but I never believed him, you know? And that, that a hundred percent comes from this divorce experience.

Oh yeah. That I have never believed I am worth enough for him to stick around. There's somebody out there better for. is how I always feel. So why I just need to let him go. So he can go be with whoever where it's, like I said, just recently, I've, I'm really starting to feel like he's, he's not gonna leave me.

Mm-hmm , you know, and we've had three kids together and, um, we in this divorce definitely define the type of mom that I am. It changed everything and, and things will always periodically come up. The more experiences I have that bring me back to this divorce. When I started having my kids, it got even harder, honestly, because then I'm like, I love this little being more than life itself.

How could I ever do anything to hurt that? Mm, wow. And that's how I felt all of a sudden, I know, I feel as a mom, How I feel about my children and I would never hurt them intentionally ever, but then I would feel like, okay, so was, did my parents not feel that way about me? And why not? Yeah. You know, I mean, that, that stuck me for a long time.

And, and throughout my children's lives, I had to make everything perfect for them. Mm-hmm , you know, holidays had to be perfect birthdays, pretty much everything that I missed out on, I had to make right. For them, you know, but I didn't realize that's what I was doing until a lot later in life. Yeah. But that's what I was trying to prove to them.

And I still do this. I'm, I'm very guilty of this constantly trained to prove that I'm a good mom and that I will never hurt them. And I would never put them through the experience I went. Wow. You know, so that's, the divorce definitely affected everything that had to do with my marriage, raising my children, which, you know, they're pretty much raised now ages 17 to 27.

So, but it still brings up questions for me, which is amazing. Cuz I'm to the point where in the near future, hopefully I'll have grandkids. Mm-hmm I could never in a hundred years imagine not being a part of their lives. So therefore it brings up the pain again, as to why can't my dad be a part of my kids' lives or why, how do you choose not to be a part of.

I don't understand me neither. And, and I can't, honestly, I can't, I can't answer those questions. He can't answer those questions. I've, I've tried. I've I've literally written down. This is what I need you to say, and that doesn't work either. Wow. So, I mean, as far as like healing from it, I don't have a ton of advice on healing from, because I am such at an early stage mm-hmm in the healing process.

I don't feel like I've even begun to start healing until I found you guys and related to all of your podcasts. So well, and I just, I think I mentioned this to you. I. Just listen to the one last week where one of your, I don't know if she's on your staff or not, but wrote that your divorce article. I was at my work desk, just literally crying as I read that because I have never heard anybody verbalize the pain like that.

It was amazing to me. Wow. It was just one more feeling of, oh my gosh, they get it. Somebody understands. And so, you know, I kind of hope one thing I, you know, would just kind of hope is that people never give up trying to find that. I mean, who knew at 50 years old, I would still be, I can be brought to tears in five seconds about my parents' divorce.

It's terrible. I, I would never wish this on anybody. It's, you know, not something, I mean, I wish I could talk to every person who was thinking about going through that and say, look, please don't and here's. So it's affected every part of my life, my marriage. And I mean, I'm very proud of the fact I've been married this long and happily.

So it kind of gave, gives me some faith back into family, which even just saying my hearing, my hip self say that is strange because at 50 years old, I'm just getting the thought of family. Back in there. Mm-hmm . Yeah. Even though, even though I've raised children for 27 years. No, that makes so much sense though.

And it's really inspiring. I have to say, I mean, there's so much that you said that I want to comment on, but I can't comment on everything. Oh. Um, but it's just, it's incredible that you've gone on and built such a beautiful marriage and you know, of course not a perfect marriage. Everyone has this thought of course, but just the fact that you're together.

And that's one thing that you reminded me of earlier is that as kids, we don't really. Care about the problems in our parents' marriage. Like obviously if there's something that's very overt and violent and things like that, of course that affects us at time. Mm-hmm . But, um, but the, the other issues, just like you said, it's like, well, yeah, my parents maybe have some problems and that's that, but they're together and we're a family and to, to kids, it's, that's what we want.

That's what we look for. Um, we, we don't expect our parents to be perfect. We expect them to love us and to stick with us and to fight for us. And when that's taken away, that's way more damaging than going through some of the issues that our parents have in their marriage. Yeah. That's perfect. That's exactly true.

And I think the longer I'm married and the more experience I've had makes me even question more as to why mm-hmm because I've gone through a happy per se life. I mean, I, I will say that. I think I am very lucky to have married, who I'm married to. Sure. If it had been maybe someone else who couldn't have put up with everything, I put him through dealing with this depression and all of this and, and keep in mind the majority of this 30 years, I didn't talk to him about this stuff.

Wow. It just, again, I didn't know how he would ever understand because his parents were together. There's no way he could understand how I felt so to not have that understanding, which is in no fault to his own, because I'm grateful. He didn't have to understand. Right. But I, you know, I didn't have that.

And so I chose. To continue the cycle of not talking about it. That's a conscious choice I've made every single day is not to talk about it until recently, but there's definitely in her dear divorce letter. There's just one line. And I have it written that just that where divorce makes you feel unlovable and you're not worthy and you're not good enough.

That's how I have felt. Even in the security of a long marriage, which again, no fault to his own. I feel like I got super lucky to have had somebody who would stand by me through all of this and fight and say, I'm not leaving, but if you look, you know, if you stand back and look at it and really think about it, I had this one decision when I was 10 years old made for me.

Right. Um, to say all these things that you're, you're not good enough, you weren't worth it. And I let that control 30 years. Of love and acceptance. And I'm not walking out on you yet. That one decision when I was 10 years old was more powerful than 30 years. My goodness that says it, right? Like I stop and think about that and think that's that it was more powerful for me from that age to have lived with this for 30 years.

Even though I have a man standing by me who says every day, I love you. I accept you. Just like you are. I will never leave you every single day says that to me. And after 30 years, I'm just now getting that. That's amazing to me. Yeah. It speaks volumes. Yeah. When you hear children are resilient, I'm like, I hope most kids are, but that one decision has been in my brain every single day for 30 years, even though someone's standing next to me saying, I'm not leaving you mm-hmm and I don't believe it.

Wow. That's just, I couldn't have said it better. That is so profound. And it's, it's hard to wrap your head around that. And mm-hmm, I think people who say that kids are resilient. I think there's a few reasons to it. One, maybe they want them to be, and two, they observe us from the outside. You know, Holly, if I looked at your life, I would probably say, oh, you've had a good, happy, yes, successful life.

You mm-hmm , you know, were successful. Um, in your family, like raising your kids, you have great kids, you have a good marriage, you had a successful career, like all these things. Um, but they don't see on the inside, they don't see what we're wrestling with. And I think that's why there's this belief that we're so resilient.

That's, that's perfect because that's exactly the, the way it is too. People do look into my life and they're like, oh, you do everything for your kids. And you, you make their birthday so fun. And, um, you know, every little even St Patrick's day, whatever. There's always a little something or you're right though, you're there, they don't see inside and they don't know why I'm doing all that.

They don't know why, you know, I have to be everything. I have to be home the home mom and I have to be the PTA president and I have to be, you know, doing everything with my kids, all, you know, that kind of a thing. Mm-hmm and they look in and they're like, yeah, you have a great, like, but reality is it's been, I don't a living hell, really trying to deal with it and deal with it alone and alone was by my choice.

You know, I can, I decided I made the decision to, to struggle silently with this and just try to fix it on my own. But it was always because in the back of my head, I'm just not worth it. Mm-hmm mm-hmm. It's hard when people always say, well, say to me, well, you're not alone. The minute someone will say that my brain automatically says, yes, you are alone.

Mm-hmm , mm-hmm, it's automatic. Yep. So that's why I think what you are doing. And these people that are contributing to this are just miracle workers. Because for the first time ever, I feel like I'm not alone. So beautiful is crazy to me. Like I said, after 40 years to have not found anything that has worked to finally feel somebody who knows how you feel.

I mean, it's just incredible. And I can't thank you enough for that, because I honestly feel like you have saved me, literally. I think about the words you guys talk about all of you every single day, because for me that's this divorce has been every single day of my life. Yeah. And now I'm trying to choose to go with.

Okay. Here's what they've said. Here's this beautiful letter that as painful as this, that she had to write it, somebody gets it. Never have. I had that ever. So I can honestly, with all my heart say, you guys have literally saved me because I see hope now. Hope that the next, hopefully 30 years I have with my husband, I can let him in more because I don't feel like I'm crazy.

you know, that's terrible to say, but I don't feel like I'm crazy. Like I did before, as far as nobody understand, you're not crazy. No, this is man. You're making me tear up, like, thank you so much for everything you said. Cause yeah, you're the reason we do this. And so thank you for just sharing your story.

Just the such profound insights you have into this. I, I could tell you've thought about this a lot and you've wrestled with this a ton and mm-hmm, , I'm just so glad we've been able to serve you and play a role in this and it's humbling to hear, but, um, it's, it's amazing at the same time. And uh, like I shared with you before we we're recording, I shared some of the things that you've said with my team and that made them so happy just to know that this is meaningful work that they're doing.

And um, that episode you were talking about for anyone who wants to go back and listen to that, which I highly recommend, and I know all you would as well, that's episode eight, That's episode eight with Miranda Rodriguez. And, uh, in the first few minutes of that, she shares this article. She wrote this letter called dear divorce, and it's just so beautiful and moving.

Um, and even if you listen to nothing else in that episode, just listen to that letter. And it's, it's very profound and, and moving just like, uh, your story, Holly. And I just wanted to say that I I'm so sorry for everything you've been through. And as you know that I get it, we get it. Mm-hmm and I'm just so glad you're on this path, and this is helping you, that it's working, which is so amazing.

And the, the lie that that's core belief that you have, that you're just not worth it. You're not enough. Um, I just wanna say to. That it is such a lie and you are worth and you are enough and for whatever it's worth, um, you're worth it for me and my team to do all the work that we do to, to help people like you.

And so just please receive that and just know that you are worth it. You are worth it. And if we need to remind you every day, we'll do it. Okay. I may need you to do that every now and then for sure that we will, it means a lot, even though my brain says something else. Maybe it'll be 30 years before I believe it, but Hey, one day into 30 years, I'm good.

You know, we can do it. Absolutely. And I have a suspicion that it's not gonna take that long. So I, I, uh, man, I love talking with you, Holly. Thank you so much. And was there anything else you wanted to say before we close out the show? I, I don't think so. I just wanna encourage anybody to, I mean, I give your stuff out to everybody that I know that is thinking even of divorce or just, we need to somehow figure out how to talk about this and open up the communication on this.

You know, I even printed out her article and I carry it with me and I can show it to my husband and say, look, this is how I feel. This is what I went through. So I think it's just important that we continue to somehow, especially for those of us who are terrible at open communication, that it's okay to talk about it.

and if we could hand that article, I, I swear to every couple thinking of divorce, maybe they would think twice about it and just never give up looking. I mean, who knows? You could be 50 years old and, and find your savior like I have found in you and your podcasts. Hmm. So thank you. I can't tell you all.

Thank you enough, because you've all the work you guys are doing. If nothing else, you have saved at least one person and that's me. So thank you.

Ma'am what an interview. If you wanna reach out to Holly, if you wanna speak with her, you can contact her through email or through social. Uh, her email is DZ, N Y land fan Gmail. So Disneyland fan gmail.com. This is all in the show notes, by the way. So you can look there to, uh, to get her email, uh, on Facebook.

You can just search Holly. Ly or just click on the link in the show notes. And then on Instagram, her handle is at DSNY land, L a N D fan. So again, Disneyland fan. And she'd love to hear from you. She said, she'd love to just talk with you, be here for you. Listen, uh, if you need it. So feel free to reach out to her a couple quick takeaways for you to think about one.

We really deserve to know why our parents got divorce. Eventually, you know, maybe if you're really young, your mom or your dad might keep that from you, but eventually we deserve to know what happened and why they got divorced. And so my question to you is this, do you know why your parents got divorced?

Do you know why they separated? And if not, what would it take for you to have a healthy conversation with them about it? Again, you deserve to know, and, and if you're not ready for that, if it would be, you know, really painful or unhealthy, or just too intense for where you're at in life, I don't recommend doing it.

Um, but if you're in a good spot and you feel like this would be a good thing for you to know, and it would help you heal and move on in life, which honestly, I think it would, then you deserve that. And so bring it up and how to do that. A few things. One, I would, you know, obviously sit mom or dad down, whoever you're closer to, and you have a better relationship with start with that person and just preface the conversation by saying.

I have something difficult. I wanna talk to you about kind of just sets the tone, right. Instead of just maybe launching into the question of like, why did you and dad get divorced? You can say that if you want, depending on your relationship, but it's usually good to preface it and say, Hey mom, Hey dad, uh, I have a really difficult question.

I want to talk with you about I'm a little. Uncomfortable bringing it up, but I wanna have a conversation with you about it because it's really important to me. So make sure you preface it and that will help make you a little bit more comfortable and your parent more comfortable and then start with leading with your intention too.

So after you preface it, you can say something like. I really just wanna know why did you and dad get divorced? Why did this not work out? And I, I, I'm not asking this to make you feel bad, I'm just asking it so I can understand. And, and I can find some closure here. I can, you know, maybe move on, move past some of the struggles that I've deal with.

So just tell them why you're asking and make sure it's more about you than them. And it's something that you just wanna really understand for your own sake to help you heal and grow and, and move on in your life. And then when they tell you, just listen, just listen to reflect, you know, don't think you need to go in and have like an argument or response, everything they say, just receive it, just say, okay, thank you for sharing that with me really interesting or whatever response you wanna say.

Just try not to be judgmental in that moment. Just listen and hear them out for what they have to say. And you might get an opportunity to share. Some things you wanna say too. And if you want to share those things, you don't have to, though this might be a good conversation for you not really to speak and just to listen and just to receive what they're saying.

And, uh, you know, at a later point, if you wanna bring up a conversation where you tell them, or, you know, one or both parents about what you've been through, you can do that, but maybe that'll be best, kept for different conversation though. Feel free to do it in this conversation if you want. And then the last point I would say is make sure to just thank them for sharing it with.

Assuming it all goes well. Right? Assuming that they're open about it, assuming that they tell you the truth, you know, hopefully that they will be more forthcoming. Um, just thank them, you know, cuz it's not easy for our parents either. It's not easy for them to talk about it. Maybe they made some mistakes.

Maybe they made some decisions that ended up bringing this all about. Um, but you can just thank them for their time. You can thank them for, for sharing with you. So again, preface it with saying, you know, Hey, this is an uncomfortable conversation for me. It might be for you too lead with your intention saying, Hey, here's why I wanna know this.

This really is for me. And then just listen to reflect on what they're saying. Don't try to refute it. Don't try to debate them or, you know, make it all about the way they screwed up. Just, just listen to reflect and try to understand where they're coming from and then thank them for, for sharing. And hopefully this will maybe open a door for you to talk with them more about this problem, about these issues that you've dealt with because of the breakdown.

Of your family. And honestly, there's research that shows that this is so healing, like the stronger your relationship with mom or dad are both ideally the less, um, anxious you'll feel the less depressed you'll feel you'll you'll deal with loneliness left. You'll, you'll feel less lonely, all these good things that can come about.

If you build up that relationship. Mom or dad both. And I've had the opportunity to talk with my parents at different points. And it has been very, very helpful. It's helped me understand them more. It's helped me get answers to certain things. And honestly just, I guess, have more of a compassionate, merciful heart towards them.

Cuz in a lot of ways, I, I have felt very hurt by them and they know that. And so it's been really good though to, to talk to them about them kind of just instead of this being this big silent wound that no one talks about it, it has really been something now that we're able to at least discuss on certain occasions.

And I hope that we'll have even more conversations like that in the future. So I want the same thing for you as well. The other takeaway, I'm sorry, this isn't as quick cuz I thought it would be the other takeaway Holly gave her kids what she never had and you can do that. Just so beautiful. So inspiring what Holly did.

You can do that as well. And so the question is this, what do you wanna give your children or your future children? That you never had because of your parents' divorce because of their broken marriage. And maybe more importantly, what's preventing you from doing that. What's holding you back. Think about that.

Cuz those barriers that are standing in your way, those are the things you need to focus on. Those are the things you need to work through because if you want that really beautiful life, that that you've dreamed about, that that really is deep in your heart. That that's a desire there. You really need to focus on those obstacles that are preventing you from having that.

And so again, what do you wanna give your children or your future children that you never had because of your parents broken marriage and more importantly, you know, what's holding you back, give that some thought and then make a plan to overcome it. If we can help you in any way, we of course are here to do.

Before closing out the show. I just wanted to say, we'd love to hear about how restored has helped you now. For one, it really gives us insight into what is most valuable for you guys. You know, if you say this episode or that piece of content has been really helpful, it helps us know. To keep doing more of that.

And it also helps us to set strategy for the future. Maybe trying some new things based on your feedback, based on what's helped you, what hasn't helped you. And it really shows other people the effectiveness of our work, which can convince people to, to use our content, to use the tools and to engage with us.

And so if you wanna share your testimony of how restored has helped you just go to restored ministry.com again, restored ministry ES singular slash testimony. Again, restored ministry.com/testimony could also just click on the link in the show notes. And then you're just gonna answer some quick questions about how restored has helped you.

And this could be totally anonymous. It's your choice. You don't have to put your name on it. We just love to hear from you. And so if you wanna please share how ReSTOR has helped you today ever ReSTOR ministry.com/testimony. And finally keep an eye out for more info about the book that we're publishing the next episodes, uh, on social as well.

And on our email list, we'll be sending out more info, special offers, a bunch of bonuses, really cool stuff that we've been working on for you guys. Super excited. So stay tuned for that. Resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 50. Thank you so much for listening. Always remember you are not alone.

We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

If I Could Write a Love Song

4 minute read.

When I was seven or eight, I had an altercation with my BFF and decided to write a song to her explaining how I felt. You know, as one does.

It didn’t end well. Unlike Mozart or Lil Romeo I was not a young musical genius and so my music writing efforts didn’t result in much.

However, I’ve always enjoyed music and loved expressing myself that way. I played violin through college and have always loved listening to music too. It doesn’t take more than a few minutes of listening to the radio to realize that one topic seems to be on most people’s hearts and minds: love.

Whether they are angry, sad, or incredibly sappy about it, love seems to be the main focus for most lyricists. Love is a huge part of our lives, so it makes sense to write about it often. And most of the general public can relate to the sentiments expressed in the different genres that talk about heartbreak, complete bliss, and everything in between.

However, one thing I don’t seem to hear as much of is a more down-to-earth, gritty-but-accurate, realistic view of love. Love that isn’t just beginning or ending, but rather love that has matured past the rainbows and butterflies but that also hasn’t ended disastrously.

The truth is that most of us spend the majority of our lives in this place, neither completely elated nor totally devastated but somewhere in between. Because love normally isn’t really as dramatic as the songs we listen to would have us believe.

Having been married only a few months, I don’t know too much about love. But I can say that what I have learned isn’t something I have ever heard in a love song. So if I could, I would write one with the insights I wish I had known earlier. I can’t because it would be terrible. But if I could, here are some things I would want to say:

Love doesn’t feel good.

Okay, sometimes it does. Sometimes you’re smiling and laughing and feeling warm and fuzzy. But a lot of times it’s a lot less like The Notebook and a lot more like a documentary that’s a little too real or even slightly boring. Loving someone isn’t just a feeling, it’s a choice that you make over and over…even when it’s hard.

There are times when you’re both really tired and just sitting there next to each other has to be enough. There are times where you go out with their work friends and feel a little awkward and left out. There are times where you disagree on sensitive topics or even really little things that nevertheless get to you. There are times where the person will disappoint you; whether it’s something they did now or yesterday or when they were in college…none of those times feel good. But the good news is that love isn’t a feeling. This is good because when these discomforts arise – which they will because we’re HUMAN and not a Hollywood film – we can still choose the other person.

Love takes work.

Falling in love is just the beginning. A lot of divorces happen because people stop ‘feeling it.’ They slowly move further and further apart as they get caught up in other priorities (work, children, etc.) and neglect their relationship. Regular date nights, reconnecting daily, playing together, sharing in each other’s interests…these are all necessary to maintain a healthy and loving relationship with your significant other.

Also, things like keeping a journal of the fun times you’ve had together or a photo album are helpful. I think it’s easy to get comfortable with the ones we love and then complain when the ‘spark’ is gone. Fortunately, the ‘spark’ is something we can work on. It just takes…work. Love needs to be nurtured and protected, not taken for granted.

Love is healing.

We all have wounds from loved ones. Whether it’s our imperfect parents, previous romantic relationships, or some traumatic event, we have hurt that stays with us. Love is healing. In healthy and loving relationships we re-learn (or un-learn falsehoods) about what it means to love and be loved.

Today a big movement out there is telling us to be independent; as counter-cultural as it may seem, I’m saying you’re not and never have been. We’re born reliant on others and though we may learn to provide for ourselves, love is something we can only learn in relation to others. That doesn’t mean it has to be a romantic relationship; we can learn this from family or friends as well, but it does mean we need others. To trust and be trusted, to give and receive, to be vulnerable, to be intimate…these are only things we can learn outside ourselves, regardless of our ability to support ourselves.

Love demands sacrifice.

It just does. Loving someone requires time and energy and effort. You can’t continue to live your life exactly how you want. You begin to take the other person into consideration and think about how your decisions affect them. You think about what makes them happy instead of only what pleases you. You eventually begin to put the other person before you…that is what love does, it makes you selfless.

We’re born inherently selfish (did you as an infant ever think about whether it was convenient for your mom to feed you or not?) out of necessity. Our goal as we grow up is to unlearn that. Loving another person is a wonderful wake-up call that can sometimes feel like a slap in the face. We’re no longer just looking out for ourselves and it’s painful. Every instinct tells us to focus on self-preservation, meanwhile, we know that we don’t have room for selfishness in relationships. Love is ultimately gift of self, a sacrifice.

So there you go. It’s not glamorous or catchy, but in my opinion, these are things that are important to know. Why these types of songs aren’t being written, I’m not sure. Maybe it’s because as a culture we’ve lost sight of what love really looks like. How can we write (or sing) about something we’re not familiar with? Love is hard, and we don’t want that. We’re looking for the easy way out and coming up empty; empty hearts and empty playlists. But we’re missing out, because love is wonderful and absolutely worth fighting for…maybe if someone would come out with a song that said so we would realize that.

This article was written by Restored team member, Miranda Henkel. It has been reposted with permission. It originally appeared on her blog, First Class Act.

#049: Healing from Your Parent’s Infidelity | Katie

What would you do if you were 12 years old and you accidentally found out that your mom is cheating on your dad? That’s the exact situation that today’s guest faced as a little girl.

We discuss how she felt that her mom not only cheated on her dad, but on her and her siblings too. Plus, we get into:

• The ways in which her mom’s infidelity wounded her

• How that wound was reopened when two boyfriends cheated on her in high school and college

• The connection between her parents’ divorce and her desire for control in life and relationships

• How on the external, everyone thought she was fine since she excelled in sports and school, but she was really hurting inside

• One very common factor at the root of so many divorces and affairs

Share your story

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

Imagine that you're 12 years old and you accidentally find out that your mom is cheating on your. What would you do? That's the exact situation that my guests today face as a 12 year old girl, like absolutely devastating. So sad yet. It's so common infidelity is so common. In fact, as you probably know, it's one of the top causes of divorce and it's absolutely heart wrenching, not only for the spouse who is cheated on.

But also for the children who were equally cheated on and abandoned. And so in this episode, my guest and I discussed that and we talk about the ways in which her mom's infidelity, wounded, her. She shares how that wound was reopened. When two boyfriends cheated on her in high school and college, we discussed the connection between her parents, divorce and her desire for control and life.

And especially in her relationships, she explains how on the outside looking in, it looked like everything was fine with her, cuz she was excelling in sports and in school, but inside she was really hurting. We also touch on one very common factor at the root of so many divorces and affairs, powerful episode, powerful story from my guests today with a lot of practical takeaways.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 49 in today. I'm joined by Katie. Katie is a fertility nurse in Denver, Colorado.

She was born and raised in Nebraska where she attended the university of Nebraska Lincoln and received her undergraduate degree in nutrition science. She then attended an accelerated nursing program through U N M C. She's passionate about sharing her story in order to help others see their potential to be healed, transformed, and live a life fully alive.

Kitty's hobbies include praying, hiking, camping, volleyball, and really anything sports or outdoors. Related. And I have to say, I don't know Katie super well, but I was really impressed with her and everyone I've talked to who knows her, has just said great things about her. So I'm really excited for you to hear this conversation.

Katie is a Catholic Christian, so you're gonna hear her talk about faith, talk about God. And if that's not you, if you don't believe in God, I'm really happy you're here. And my challenge for you is this, go into this with an open mind. That's it just go into with an open mind and I guarantee you that you're gonna gain something from this episode.

You're gonna walk away with some inspiration or maybe some practical advice that you can use to heal and to grow. So here's my conversation with Katie,

Katie. Hey, welcome. Hi, thank you. This is great. Excited to be here. Yes. Yeah, yeah. We haven't done an in-person interview in a long time, so it's great to have you in the little studio just to set the scene for everyone. We're sitting in our little restored studio and uh, good vibes. Yeah. I love it. I love it here.

And, uh, we have, yeah, Katie's sharing some coffee and we're just chilling and it's great to have here. I, I think we met years ago at a party, right? Yeah. Yeah. Kind of just recently reconnected at St. Vincent de Paul, but yeah, it's been a little while. Yeah. Yeah. It's great to have you here. Let's go back in time.

Let's go back to when your parents separated and divorced, take us there. How old were you? What happened? How did you react to it? I was actually 22 and my parents finally divorced. Um, but I will take you back to when I was 12 years old. Um, just because from the time I was 12 until the time I was 22 was just kind of the thick of the turmoil with my parents.

Um, yeah. So when I was 12 years old, . Yeah, it was just kind of like a normal day in the summer, um, in my house. And I don't even know why I was on my parents' computer and my mom had had her email pulled up and I think I was probably honestly just bored. I like don't think I'm like, I was super like. Yeah, you were, I was not looking for anything.

Yeah. I think I was just bored. And so I started just kind of going through my mom's emails and I found an email from her to, um, another man where yeah, just reading it as a 12 year old. Yeah. Just like stomach dropping, like overwhelming nausea, just kind of knowing what I was reading, but then, um, at the same time, just like kind of being very confused.

I still kind of remember, you know, the words that she was saying, like, this is not my dad. She should not be saying these things. Who is this man named Chris? Um, just feeling very confused. And then also I just kind of even remember like the environment of my house feeling different. This place that was safe.

You know, my mom who was safe, everything that I knew in that world, in the world that I knew it in that moment, um, just totally changing. So I was 12 at the time, my sister was 14 and my brother would've been 17. I went and I grabbed my sister and, um, brought her over to the computer and showed her the email.

We went and got my brother, Matt. He came over to the computer, we read the email and I can't remember if it was in that moment or if it was a little bit later, but we ended up asking my mom to come over to the computer as well. Wow. That's great. Which is, I know it actually like now that I think about it, now, it, yeah, it really is.

Yeah. But I don't, I feel like most kids wouldn't have done that. Good for you. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Um, so I remember my mom coming over to the computer, all of us just being there together while she read the email. And I still remember, even in that moment, just like really studying her, like every expression, just kind of reading her body language, just really kind of in this like fight or flight, like who is this person who, you know, because up until that point, she a very good mother, very loving, very attentive, very selfless.

So just like, I think my little self was trying to figure out life. So my mom read it and she told us that. It was a joke and that essentially that, yeah, he was an old man that she worked with and she had gone on a work trip to California and that the email was just a joke. And so I remember this like wave of relief, just like rushing over my whole body.

And I was like, okay, like life is back to normal. This place is safe. I can trust my mom. She's telling the truth. Yeah. Just feeling very good in that moment with my family. And I still remember going to bed that night and lying in bed and thinking to myself, what if she's lying? I think it's just, you know, my pure younger self, just being able to sense, like that was not normal, you know, even if it, even if she's joking, which I don't think that she was.

Yeah. So that, that was just the first time where my mom lied to us. Yeah. I just kind of the next 10 years, my mom. Kind of primarily, essentially was having an affair with another man who she's married to now and who who's different than the person in the email. But I essentially just like took on a new role.

I was like no longer a daughter. I was now a detective and seriously just, yeah, every couple of months would find a text message. Would hear a phone call, just something that showed that she was being unfaithful. And every time we asked my mom about it, she would lie. And so obviously, I mean, we can get there in a little bit, but just massive trust wounds because not only is my mother not being faithful, not being faithful to her family, to her husband, but also like just being lied to and lied to and lied to for so many years.

Um, makes it very hard to trust really anyone, but, um, anyone . Yeah, because it's like this person who is supposed to know you and love you unconditionally can. Not only hurt you once, but hurt you so many times over and over again. And we trust our parents the most more anyone. Right. Right. So if they betray that trust, we tend to think like, you're saying, well, who can I trust?

Right. Yeah. It's, it's so damaging. Well, yes. And my dad is just the hugest gift. Um, he is just a very good, holy humble man. Um, very faithful. So we, we ended up sharing about the affairs with my dad very early on. And so my dad was also kind of in the same boat as us. Um, also just kind of playing the role of detective and also, you know, trying to give my mom every opportunity to change and to choose our family.

So it was just a very unhealthy environment growing up a lot, a lot of resentment and just. No, no trust there between my mom and my dad, my mom, and all of her kids. And yeah, so essentially, um, I'll just kind of fast forward to the end. There was a lot of, a lot of things, you know, kind of in the, in the middle.

But then when I was a senior in high school, my parents were separated and my dad and I were living at our cabin at the lake and my mom was living at our house in town and we always left our front door unlocked. And I remember coming home and the front door being locked and just being a little bit confused and then going to the back door and coming into our house to find like my mom and like another man's like clothes on the, on the ground.

And, um, essentially my mom was there with the man who she's now married to. And so, yeah, that's how really it ended and how ultimately my dad was kind of like, you know, I value the sacrament of marriage and it's just kind of being made a mockery right now. And so that's eventually what led to their divorce, even though really my dad just did not want their marriage to end because of really like the, the sacrament of it.

And he's just such a good and faithful man. So, yeah. And he probably knew what an effect it would have on you guys too, even though of course, that environment you were living had to change. There's no questioning that right, man. Um, but it sounds like he did the right thing. He tried to rescue the marriage and then, um, there wasn't, you know, an effort on both ends, which is so sad.

Wow. That is traumatic. Which often isn't talked about, we don't talk about divorce and separation. Just things that happened in broken families as trauma. Wow. That is unbelievable. And I think, yeah, what, what you said just there being such a disconnect. you know, between the things you saw every day or, or at least the, what you perceived from your mom and then the reality like underneath, and I'm sure I know you love your mom.

Mm-hmm , I'm sure there's like a lot of yeah. Difficult feelings there. Yeah. Just, I'm sure she's dealt with so much shame just needing to live those two lives. Like something's really wrong there if someone does that. And so what we can get into that a little bit more, but I'm curious if you're open to sharing.

How long do you think that stuff went on for? I think, I mean, I think it was just for those 10 years, which is a long time that is time. Do you think it was prior to when you find that found that email or was that a more recent when occurrence that just started around that time? Yeah, I do feel like the timing.

I, I'm not exactly sure, but I do think that it was all relatively new. We did start to kind of see some changes in my mom. I don't exactly know what spurred them, but I do think that. it had not been going on for long before I found that email. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I've heard stories where things have happened for like 10 years, like an affair or something like that.

And, uh, it took that long to come out. Wow. This is crazy. So yeah, man, so much there. Uh, we're gonna talk more about that, cuz I think that wound of infidelity we can call it is very unique and it's not talked about much. And I think because you know, we love our parents and that's one of the things I'm sure you've thought a lot about it's like I don't, you know, wanna hurt my parents.

And one of the things I realized recently I was reading David Goggin's book can't hurt me. And if, have you heard of him? Cause this Navy seal for anyone who doesn't know him, he's this Navy seal who just came from an extremely broken family. He's an African American. And just like basically there, he had real racism in his life and things like that.

basically, he started going down this path of just repeating that cycle. And, uh, in the end he just realized like, if I don't do something and take ownership of this mess that I've been handed by, my parents, I'm just gonna end up just like them. Amazing story. So he, basically, one of the things he says in the book is that, um, his dad was super abusive.

He had like multiple affairs and he said that a lot of times he would hide his own pain and not bring things up that were uncomfortable for his parents, um, because he was trying to protect them. So not only was it kind of this, I'm just gonna hide it, um, to keep the peace, but they're like actively protecting his parents in a way, or at least, you know, one of them, his mom in this case it's because he just didn't wanna hurt her.

She had been through so much already. And I think that that happens so often. So it's an important topic. We'll get into it more. Yeah. Was there anything else you wanted to add about kind of how. You reacted to it in the years that followed. I think that the way that I responded was th this is such a strong word, and I don't feel it now, but I think, yeah, I, my younger self just really resented.

and I was gonna use the word hate, but like, I, honestly, those were words that like, I really truly felt when I was that, that age and going through this, but just really resented and like really, truly hated my mom. Can I stop you right there? Mm-hmm so for, anyone's not here with us in the room. I can see you're uncomfortable when you say those words.

Yeah. Which I just wanna point that out and I'm sure you know this, but there's something that's so prevalent in our culture and probably anywhere in the world is we tend to like demonize negative emotions, like hate or anger or sadness or things like that. So , but it's important and this is good for any parents listening.

It's really important to allow yourself, your children and anyone else. Who's listening to allow yourself to feel those negative emotions and they can't be uncomfortable. I'm not like putting it inside. that's OK. Yeah. But no, it's, it's a real problem. And. Especially for people like us who come from broken homes, we deal with so many heavy and negative quote unquote negative emotions.

And if we tend to look at them as like bad, then we are gonna feel a lot of shame. Like something's very flawed and wrong with us at a deep level, and it's gonna inhibit our ability to heal. So I just wanted to point that out. No, that's so good for me here. You, I not teaching you, but for everyone else, I think it's really important to, to understand.

And that's, uh, one of the things I know personally, I want to teach my kids. It's like, yeah, it's okay for you to feel negative emotions like anger and sadness and all those things. Like, there's nothing wrong with you. In fact, there's something very right with you. And I would say it to you too, like the fact that you hated your mom for what she had done, which brought about so many other problems in your life, so much pain to your dad and your siblings and you like, yeah, it makes sense.

Mm-hmm yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's funny because when I. Was thinking about saying that, you know, it's just kind of something where I know other people need to hear it. And it is something that I struggle to say because I, you know, my desire is not to hate anyone and it's not even, yeah, I do not hate my mom.

It is what she chose to do. And those are the things that I hate and you're right. That it is appropriate. And if I did not, there would be something kind of disordered in me. And so, yeah, it's an uncomfortable feeling to feel, but so necessary when there is real injustice happening. So, absolutely. Thanks for saying that.

Yeah, no, of course. It's I totally get what you're saying. And it's important to, I think, bring attention to that. And one of the things that a lot of people in like Christian circles, uh, will, will hear is, you know, hate the sin. Like love the sin, love the sin, hate the sin. And that's basically what you're describing.

It's like, you can still love someone ball, not approving of their behavior, of the things that they're doing. That's always the goal. In the years that followed too. What were the effects that you saw from the, their broken marriage, the separation, all of that? How did it impact your life? Um, so essentially, yeah, I did lose kind of all respect for my mom and just really did rebel in high school.

And in college, I definitely maintained really very good grades and excelled in sports. And so kind of in the eyes of the world was, was still just very successful and doing just fine while kind of getting into the party scene in high school. And then also into college, I was in a sorority and yeah, just in a couple of very unhealthy relationships in high school and in college.

And actually I think the devil knows where we're weak and he knows where to attack. And my boyfriend in high school was a little bit older than me and in college, he was unfaithful to me. My boyfriend in college was also unfaithful to me. And so, you know, just this, like. these two men also who knew about my parents and their marriage and their divorce and my mom's infidelity still choosing that.

Wow. Yeah. Is just really kind of dries home. This like lie that these people that really are supposed to love you and be selfless and sacrifice are going to always choose themselves. And so that's just something that I am like, just kind of now going through a lot of healing and yeah. A lot of redemption there, but yeah, just a lot of, a lot of wounds on top of wounds in that area.

So essentially just, I think coped with it in. Just all of the worldly ways in the party scene. Yeah. Like really focusing on body image, controlling my eating, and then finally kind of when my second boyfriend was unfaithful, really hit what I would call a rock bottom, I think. Yeah. Just really coping in all the wrong ways.

And then I actually was asked to spend a summer in Jacksonville with my cousin nannying for her new baby. And that is really where I experienced my reversion to the faith. I think I just knew that I was not in a good place and that I needed a change. So I brought a whole bunch of good books. Um, men, women in the mystery of love, rediscovering Catholicism, how to find your soulmate without losing your soul.

And I listened to all of these podcasts by father Mike Schmitz. And I went to confession for the first time in several years and like filled an envelope front and back with sins that I needed to confess. And I really think it was the grace from that one confession that. Really just brought me to where I'm at now, which is in a very, very, very different place than I was at the time.

But it was, I mean, there was so much suffering that summer. I was really just drawn out of this life, um, out of all of the heartache and all of the hurt and Jesus just spoke to my heart and healed it. And I remember calling my sister who was a little ahead in the faith. She'd already kind of gone through a version herself and just telling her, you know, like I wanna be a Saint and I wanna be a Saint now.

And it was just a very powerful, yeah, Jesus speaking to my heart and sharing me, sharing with me, who I was in him and yeah. But definitely went through some real coping mechanisms before reaching that point. So totally. And how old were you, uh, that. I was a junior in college. Okay. So that's good. I dunno.

so you're probably like what, 20, 21? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Yep. Okay. Good to know. Wow. That's profound. That's amazing. And go into the unhealthy coping. Uh, yeah. What were you looking for and all those things. What do you think was the motivation behind you doing a, of things that you did love, love, and unconditional love and attention?

I think, yeah, it's amazing how all of the ways that we are coping, we are really just searching. And I mean, even in the control of eating and body image issues, I know that that's pretty prevalent after you've gone through just a very unstable family environment. It's kind of like, what can I control? And so even in that, not only am I trying to control the thing that I can control, but I'm also trying to gain the attention of men who, you know, I'm looking to fill this void of.

This lack of love that I was not receiving from my mom. Yeah. Really just looking for love in all the wrong places and yeah. Not succeeding and finding it there. Yeah, totally. No, it makes sense. And it's kind of baffling when we look at it logically, it's like, okay, we're doing these things that are actually gonna hurt us in, in a way to escape from the pain and the void of love and affirmation that we want.

But, but we did them anyway. Mm-hmm and I was right there. Yeah. Had a struggle with pornography and all sorts of things through high school, I dealt with loneliness, uh, depression, to some extent, anxiety for sure. And the interesting thing as well. I did well in school. I did well in sports too. And so from the outside, People were, you know, would've looked at me and be like, oh, he's fine.

He's good. And that's, that's really common for people who come from broken families. Like statistically, most people don't experience what we're experiencing most struggle in school. They even drop outta high school or college. That's what the studies have shown. But for those of us who, who do push on, um, and somehow are able to make it through.

In fact, for me, it became a coping mechanism in itself. Like it, I received so much affirmation in sports because I was a good athlete and, you know, in school I wanted to do well because I wanted to please my teachers, I wanted to, you know, have some sort of affirmation that I was lacking from in my case, my dad, especially.

And, uh, yeah, it's, it's real. And it's a huge mistake. Everyone listening, especially any teachers out there or anyone who loves or leads people come from broken homes. Don't be fooled by that. Um, it can be a facade. It can be absolutely a mask that we wear in order to kind of bury the real pain and herd and, you know, it's possible, we're not ready to deal with it at that point in life.

That's totally possible, but it eventually will surface and we're gonna have to deal with it. So that really stood out to me as well. And the controlled piece too, which I can talk about in a second, but I wanna give you a chance to say anything you wanna say. Yeah, yeah, no, that's very true. Yeah. And just kind of you mentioning like your struggle with pornography, that is something also like, I, I think if I really shared all the details of a lot of the aspects of my parents' marriage, it would just, yeah, that there's just a lot there.

Um, but I have been very affected by other people in my life, struggling with pornography. And so in a way that the Lord has really used it. As kind of a driving force in my heart. So my mom also, I struggled with pornography and there were times that yeah, I would happen upon it or have to, you know, see it or listen to it.

And also, um, or a couple of my ex-boyfriends that I knew were using pornography. And it is just something that I know is such a real struggle for so many people. And yeah, I just want to speak very tender lane to those spots because we all, you know, we are all broken and we all deal with things in yeah.

Different ways. And it's just something that I, yeah. I just think needs to really, I think we talked about more just because it is such a huge way that. Families are broken apart and it not only affects men, women, but the children. And it's just a huge way that the devil can break apart this family unit.

And yeah, I mean, I just have this passion place on my heart where, you know, it's, whether it's talking about it or praying rosaries for an end of sexual impurity or volunteering at a home for women who have been sex trafficked, it is such a real evil in our world. And yeah, just, I hope to be a tool to really kind of battle that in some way.

That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Yeah. It's, it's such a plague, but it's like a silent plague in a lot of ways, like a disease that's, you know, slowly and quietly infecting your entire body. And, uh, thankfully for me, you know, I was young when I saw a pornography, I was 11 and struggle with it for, you know, a few years, but had the chance to.

I hear Jason Everett speak and he really helped me. And one of the things I wanna make sure whenever we talk about this is like, there's so much hope and there's freedom and it's possible to get away from Matt. And so for anyone out there, uh, listening, we'll throw some resources in the show notes like Jason Everett and Matt FRA recently came out with a book called forged.

It's a 33 day challenge to break free from pornography. And I think that one specifically for guys, but there's another one for women called you might be able to help you with this uncompromising purity, which is specifically talking about the issues of pornography and masturbation for, for women, which is something that is not talked about nearly enough as well.

So there's all sorts of things there. But I remember I was talking with, uh, someone through ReSTOR and, uh, she was sharing with me how, when she was young, her dad looked at porn like crazy mm-hmm and he actually tried to get her into it, like tried to get her to watch it as well. And like using manipulative and tricky tactics to do.

super dysfunctional. Obviously everything in a broken family is dysfunctional, but, um, this is very real and it's not something like you said, that's talked about enough, so I'm glad you brought that up. And I think it is a less is at the core of so many broken marriages. Uh, you know, maybe it's the driving factor.

Maybe it's just another factor in so many situations. That's, that's absolutely true. And it's devastating. I wanna go to. Control something that we've learned is that people who've been through trauma. They like you and me. They tend to never wanna repeat that again, right? Oh, no. Not tend to. They never . And so one of the things that we intuitively think that we can do in order to prevent any sort of harm like that from happening again, is to control every variable that we possibly can in relationships, in our careers, in life and school and everything.

And that is exhausting. It is so hard. yeah, you're right. It's something that you, probably those of us who, who struggle with it, we probably don't realize actually how much energy we're putting into it, how difficult it is. And so it's a difficult spot to get to, cuz I remember at one point, uh, I was like at the end of high school, beginning of college, Just literally, probably could have been diagnosed with O C D in some ways, and really struggling with that control piece, just wanting to control even things that didn't makes sense.

Really. And I see my siblings actually have struggled with O C D and, uh, that's the trend actually. We're noticing with people come from broken families. We don't know if there's something that we're gonna be looking into the research on it, but man control is a very, very real thing that a lot of us struggle with.

Mm-hmm yeah. I think the biggest way that I struggle with control is when I'm in a relationship. And I think that that probably comes from the biggest fear or my root fear, really being infidelity or, yeah, just dysfunction in the relationship. I don't think I struggle with control too much, I guess. I guess I do.

Yeah. Even outside of relationships, but, but it gets out the most in your relationship. Totally makes sense. Yeah. And even just, you know, when things don't go as planned. Just really struggling to surrender in those moments. So, and I think I, more than I even know, control most parts of my day and yeah, really I think have this false sense of security in that, because I really do think that it really is.

I mean, we are so much less in control than we know or think, but yeah, I think the illusion of us being in control makes us feel a little bit more secure. Totally. The illusion of control. I love it, that, that nails it and, uh, totally relates to that. And I think that there's a lot of people who do so you're not alone.

um, even in my marriage, um, my wife and I are pretty open about things. That's been something that's like difficult, even it, it gets silly at times. She's like, no, I don't want you to wash my clothes. It's like, I got this or something, you know, more serious where it's like, oh, I don't wanna show weakness or be vulnerable because if I do then maybe.

Uh, what happened with my parents' marriage will kind of play out again and that's like terrifying. That's one of my worst fears and that's going to what you said, the fear of infidelity that is so real for so many of us. And I totally read it with that. That that's probably my worst fear. Uh, at least when it comes to, to my marriage is that like, my wife would cheat on me or even I would do something stupid.

So I totally relate on that front. And I can't imagine how damaging it was for you to go through those relationships where those guys cheated on you. Because man, that is just devastating. It just, yeah, you're a nurse, you know, it's like taking a scalpel and just like ripping open like a, a wound that was maybe somewhat healed or at least, yeah.

Maybe not even healed. It was just opening it deeper and bigger. And that is horrible. I can't imagine you mentioned you touched on this already, but yeah. What were you, you. I, I guess, what did you believe about yourself? Did, did you, you thought maybe, I guess, oh gosh, like I'm just not worth loving or what was going on inside of you?

Oh yeah. A bit, but elaborate if you would. Yeah. Two lies that come to mind immediately. Um, which I still definitely struggle with. I am in therapy now, which is very helpful to kind of unpack some of the lies, but definitely I am not enough. I am not worthy. And specifically I'm not beaut beautiful enough, which is just very interesting because I think a lot of things, anything that I really struggle with, they're all very interconnected and all very tied, you know, back to the source of the wound, which is really ultimately my parents' divorce and my mom's infidelity, but, um, yeah, ultimately just feeling like.

Yeah, I am not enough. I think in regards to my mom, it's kind of this, like, I am not, I am not enough, or I am not worthy of you sacrificing your own happiness for me. Um, and then in regards to my relationship with men, I am not beautiful enough and that's why you have to go elsewhere. And so, yeah, just a lot of lies that, you know, when the devil is working can appear very true.

Yeah. Wow. And I know before the show, we were talking about another episode, uh, on our podcast and you related a lot to the idea that you're a gift, a gift that's not worth giving or not worth keeping which man, it just like strikes to the core for, for so many I know for me too. Yeah. And I think when I heard that, the way that, that lie kind of manifested in my mind was.

that I can kind of on the surface be very charming or attractive. And then once someone really knows the real me or knows, knows what I've been through or knows what's under the surface, kind of like the opposite of like a fine wine, getting better with time. It's kind of like, oh, I'm, I think I'm quite the opposite of that.

And really the more someone could know me and really know what I struggle with or what I wrestle with. Yeah. Actually people will leave or people will not find it worthy and yeah. Kinda like dip out. Yeah. And then what we do with that often is that we tend to start controlling again, that controlling what people see.

Right, because we think, oh gosh, I, if I, like you said, if I show them the real me, then they're not gonna wanna stay around. So I'm gonna create a version of me that I think that they want, that will make them stay and stay faithful. Right. And that never works says it. It doesn't know. It does not. No let's yeah.

I understand why we tried that, but it's, doesn't, doesn't where we think it will work, but it, it just doesn't and ends up leading to maybe a false sense of intimacy. And it's basically building, you know, house on, on lies, which is just so fragile and eventually will fall. Right? Yeah. So true. Let's go to healthy coping and healing.

So what, yeah. What does that look like? You mentioned therapy and obviously your faith is a big part of that, but elaborate if you would, on a few things that have really helped you cope. And heal the most. Yeah, I think really first and foremost, my faith is the most important thing in my life. Um, in my relationship with Jesus, uh, really specifically through the sacraments, I go to daily mass and pray a holy hour every day.

And that is, you know, I think some people see it as like, oh, you were like, you're so holy. And it's actually like, you don't know how much I need it. like, it is a necessity. And it's not something that yeah. Is like out of pride. It's out of like a real profound humility of, I need the grace of Jesus in the Eucharist and my daily prayer to, yeah, really.

I just need it. So I would, and Jesus is so faithful. He shows up every day and gives me the grace that I need and has been healing so much in my heart, in my mind, my body. Yeah, just immense healing over. However, however long. Um, and then, yeah, I would say my sister and really, I think in general, I am starting to now just recognize the importance of community.

I think that so many of the lies that we hear we assume are either just how we are, or they are our fault, or we are alone in that. And we feel very isolated. And so I just went on a life giving wounds retreat last weekend. And so essentially it, it was a healing retreat for adult children of divorced parents and to have the community of people who have gone through what you've been through and who feel the same way.

Coupled with listening, listening to the restored podcast has just been really, really huge for me. And then having my sister who's gone through what I've gone through. Just not feeling alone in it is just more important than I thought it was. And then, yeah, finally I think therapy has been. Very beneficial.

I think therapy is one of those things where you kind of question like, does it really help? And then over time you look back and you are just living differently and you have more of an ability to really question why you are doing what you're doing or you're believing what you're believing and just, yeah.

Really sharing about your life with someone who is a professional. And then who also, um, is just kind of like a third party, not a family, a family member or friend. Who's really gonna kind of tell you what you wanna hear. It's more of just a very necessary, yeah. Person who's been trained to really identify why our behaviors are the way that they are.

So those three things, I think kind of. Yeah. Maybe in that order have been really instrumental in my healing to get me to where I am now. Love it. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people are opposed to counseling. Like, oh, I don't think it'll work. Or, you know, just, it's a difficult thing to go through. So they may kind of shy away from that.

I heard a Navy seal once they, you know, big, tough, like alpha male Navy seal Jocko, willing. I don't know if you've heard of him, but yeah, he, he was like kind of saw counseling as like this weak thing to do, especially a seal it's like super tough too. But he said it helped him to understand that a psychologist, a counselor is just a mechanic for your brain.

so true. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like one of the things, you know, even if there's not this like huge immense turnaround, cuz a lot of the things in your life you'd already been going down that path. And now this is an additional tool for you to continue to heal and feel whole again, which is awesome. One of the things, uh, it's not a perfect analogy, but if you think of like your car, uh, the more you understand about your car and how it works and what can go wrong and all those things and try to get it to work properly, by bringing it to someone who knows what they're doing, uh, the better your car will function and the better it will work for you.

And so the same, I think is true for us in life. It's like the more. Even just on the understanding level, counseling is so helpful for that. It's like, okay, you make way more sense to yourself. Mm-hmm and that alone, hopefully, you know, there's more than just that. Hopefully there are some real changes in the way that you feel.

If you're experiencing symptoms like anxiety, depression, hopefully you can lessen those, learn to manage them or even get rid of them altogether. Which is awesome. If you can, even just the understanding piece I think is so helpful and I've been through five, six years of counseling myself, so I can say the same.

And, um, at first it wasn't something that I, I thought would be effective. I, you know, would basically just not open up to the counselor was when I was younger. Cuz my parents suffered when I was 11 and so went to counseling then, but then eventually through the years, especially in my teens, I realized, man, this is, this could be really helpful.

So yeah. I love it. But yeah, I'm mechanic for your brain. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Going back to what you said about God's grace. So anyone listening, who isn't familiar with that, I just wanna explain a little bit, you've heard me talk about this on this show before grace is just God's life in our souls and one there's.

It has a few different functions. One of them is that it gives us the strength to do good and avoid evil. So it gives the ability to, to recognize good and to see good and to choose it and, and to do that thing. So this, and like the secular world, we call that good habits really, but it also heals nature.

Like it, it has the ability to, to heal us in, in ways that we can't even maybe sense or experience, but it, it, it can do that, like kind of like a medicine that you would take for a disease maybe that you can't see, or maybe there's not a lot of symptoms for, but you know, is there, that's kind of how grace works in our souls.

And so it's so important in the healing process, especially on a spiritual level, when we're talking about healing, our relationship with God to have God's life in our souls so that we can do good, avoid evil, but also heal ourselves on, on a, in a very deep, deep way. And there's so much more that can be said there, but those are just some starting points that are helpful to, to underst.

we're always a work in progress. Right. You're still in path of healing. I am too. You've made a lot of progress though. Mm-hmm so I'm just curious what's life, like now, compared to what it was like before contrast that if you would. Yeah. So essentially, um, now, so kind of going through that reversion, I was in college and yeah, just really kind of like living the party scene.

And so after spending that summer away, I came back and was really, I guess, kind of living like a double life where during the week I was still, I w I started going to daily mass and praying, and then on the weekends would still kind of go out with all my friends. And just over time, I started to sense, you know, just like the peace and the freedom and the joy during the week versus, you know, just a profound lack of peace and yeah, just real.

Despair and lack of joy on the weekends, just, you know, sensing myself, trying to kind of cope or fill this void or numb the ways that I was feeling from the effects of my parents' divorce. So now yeah, I am working for Bella. It's a very, pro-life OB GYN, women's health family practice clinic, and it's a lot more mission based where we will serve anyone that walks in our door and yeah, just a very life giving ministry.

And so I'm a nurse doing that. And then, yeah, just really spending a lot of time in prayer and at mass. And then also just giving him my extra time. I I'd kind of mentioned earlier, but, uh, this, the passion in my heart for the battle against sexual impurity and starting to volunteer at a home for women, who've been rescued out to sex trafficking, which, you know, those are all kind of.

Related in one, one way or another. And so, yeah, just really the, the Lord has done immense work in my heart to kind of bring me to a place where I think the ways that I cope is really by going to him now and of giving myself of myself in other ways. Beautiful. Love it. Yeah. And that's a big turnaround from yeah.

Someone maybe who was wearing a mask, uh, putting up a facade of things, everything being okay. And just really like hurting deep inside and even your vulnerability of coming on the show. And I know you've talked to people about your story. That is, that's a big change in itself, cuz I know for me, uh, for a while I didn't really wanna talk about it.

So it, it's amazing to see the progress you've made and you know, hearing your story and then also how you're still working on it. Cause we, I say this all the time on the show, but healing's an infinite. It's like fitness. Like you never wake up one day. At least I don't I wish, yeah. I'm like, okay, I've reached the pinnacle of fitness.

I never need to work out again or eat healthy. No, of course you need to continue to maintain it. So healing, I think in a lot of ways is like that though. We can't really turn a corner and find some real closure. So, so that's, uh, amazing. And thanks for sharing. I, I think it's really encouraging for people who are in a tough spot right now to know, okay.

There's hope mm-hmm, like there's light at the end of the tunnel. You don't need to stay where you are. You don't need to feel the way you do forever. And it doesn't certainly doesn't define you because as one of the counselors we interviewed on the show said that, you know how you're feeling. It, it just, how, how you are.

It's not who you are. It doesn't say it doesn't dictate your identity. So your brokenness is just something you have to deal with. Um, but it's not who you are. And so, thanks for sharing that. I wanna go back to something you said before. I think it's worth touching on cuz I think there's a lot of people in this situation.

Uh, people like us tend to be loaners. Mm-hmm we tend to just kind of go it alone. We don't want to, uh, like I said, open up or rely to heavily on other people because we've learned, especially with one or both parents that people really aren't reliable. And there's some truth to that. I would, it would be silly for me to say there's no truth to that.

There's some truth to that, but there certainly are people who can be trusted. There are good people, you can develop good friendships. You can even have a great marriage. It does take work. It takes time, but it's hard for us to believe that I, I still struggle with that at times, even in my own marriage, but I'm always proved wrong when I try to trust, especially, you know, in my marriage and things like that.

And it is possible that you'll be burned again, totally open to that. But what I'm getting at here is that your realization that community is important. That's profound. Because I know you and I are both high functioning people. I can tell mm-hmm and yeah. You probably try to do a million things in a day.

Is that fair? Yes. Yeah. You like checklists? Yes. Yeah. I could afford to rest a little more so. Yeah. Yeah, same. So I like too much and I don't have enough leisure and all those things. So anyway, we kind of look at our brokenness as a problem to be solved, which in a way it is, but we tend to think, okay, the way that I solve my brokenness is by doing this checklist of items.

And there's some truth to that. Cuz you go to counseling. Typically what you'll get is homework things you should do good. That that's part of it. Um, but what we're learning, especially just through the stories we're hearing and, and the experts we brought on the show is that so much of healing is relat.

Mm, mm-hmm because for the basic reason that so many of the wounds that we've experienced come from our relationships. And so you've already said that a few times, how just the devil's attacking you kind of where you're weak. And so the way the antidote in so many, um, situations is experiencing authentic love in genuine friendships and beautiful romantic relationships and things like that.

But it it's difficult. Isn't it, to, to turn that corner and be like, I need people . Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I remember one of my friends telling me that once is so much of healing is necessary. It needs to happen through relationships with people. And I still remember like holding onto this, you know, kind of one thing where I'm like, I don't want the healing to have to come through me sharing that with someone.

And then in my most recent like romantic relationship, I. I remember sharing that with him and the immense healing that came from it. And I remember thinking back to my, it was a priest friend of mine who had said that, and I was like, wow, you know, he's right. And kind of, depending on how people respond, it can be immensely healing or immensely hurtful.

And so, you know, there needs yeah. Right. But yeah, just the healing that came from that was huge. And so, yeah, I totally agree. So much healing has to come through relationships with others and it's scary, but it is so worth it. Yeah. Yeah. And it can be done gradually over time. And that's one of the things that we recommend.

It's like, don't just open your heart up to anyone. Fully, you know, all at once, do it over time. Find some people, ideally a group of people that you can trust that you can have these vulnerable conversations with, who can really know the real you, not the one that you just present to the world on Instagram.

And so it's so important to have that group of people, but, but it can happen over time. And I think knowing that takes a lot of the scariness out of it, it's like, okay, I don't need to go, but at some point you might have to have a more vulnerable conversation to open up about things. And typically people don't do that first.

You're gonna have to do it first. And then when you do it first, they're probably gonna open up about the, the, their own things in life that have, uh, really hurt them. And. Lots of good stuff there. Speaking of relationships, let's talk about how your parents divorced the breakdown of their marriage, the infidelity, all that has affected your relationships.

We already talked about quite a bit, but yeah. Elaborate if you would on that. Yeah. Well, um, one thing that was very good for me to hear when I went on this retreat, the last weekend was that it is very common for adult children, a divorced parents to have to go through some failed relationships before they find the right one or the one essentially marriage.

And that was very providential timing for me. I just recently went through a broken engagement. And so, um, essentially there, I think were probably a lot of factors, but yeah, ultimately it kind of boiled down to both of us really needing more healing. And I can definitely acknowledge that these last five months for me have been.

yeah, just an immense season of suffering in a way that I know that I am going through some very deep and intense healing. So essentially when kind of right before we got engaged, my boyfriend at the time opened up and shared some things that he was just being more vulnerable about with me and. It really uncovered a lot of things that I honestly didn't even know were there.

So for me, this is very providential timing for me to be able to speak into this now, after all of this has happened, just because yeah, there was a lot of, of wounds that were brought to the surface that I truly did not know were there or needed to be healed. I think kind of in my mind, I had found this very good and holy Catholic man.

And once again, I was safe and I think that I had kind of thought these, these sins that had once really affected me would never affect me again. And then when it was even just like touched on, not nearly in as dramatic of a way as my parents, it just yeah. Brought a lot to the surface. And so it really manifested in like a lack of trust and yeah, just certain ways where I think having to deal with a lot of the trauma that I went through.

Was just really difficult to go through in the midst of COVID and an engagement and just, yeah. Some healing on my end, some healing on his end. So yeah, it was just huge for me to go on that retreat and hear that some people have to go through some broken relationships and then also followed by, I remember Dan who led the retreat multiple times telling me that I am capable and I am worthy of a good and holy marriage.

And I was like, whoa, like, it's amazing how, you know, I can know that in my mind, but to hear it and to actually believe it is so different. And so yeah, it has, it is still affecting my relationships. I think it's kind of one of those things where going through therapy and the community and all those things are going to be just so necessary when I enter.

Into another relationship, just because, yeah, I think in a certain sense, it will be a little bit more, I think if you've gone through something like a, with your parents having been divorced, it's going to be a little bit more challenging, but in a way where it is more rewarding. I dunno how to explain it.

I think if you are really wounded in an area, there is a desire and a tendency for a deeper love. I think sometimes about my friends whose parents weren't divorced and I, in a way I am a little bit envious of, you know, the lack of trauma or the lack of wounds that they have. But in a certain sense, I also know how much I value truth, how much I value fidelity, how much I value, very real and pure love.

And I don't think it would be the same if I hadn't gone through what I'd been through. So even though it is difficult, there's so much hope. And I think a greater capacity for a deeper love, if you really kind of embrace. What you've been through and embrace who you are and embrace the healing and yeah.

Just allow the therapy to work, the grace to work the, all the things. Yeah. There's just so much hope on the other side. Beautiful. Wow. That's so hard. It's a lot to go through. We know a bunch of couples sexually recently. Who've broken off engagements and I think it's S heroic. Mm-hmm, , it's difficult. , even embarrassing.

I'm sure. In, in some ways, which is really hard to, to deal with. Yeah. I think I am maybe the only, I guess at times, but I, I was gonna say, I think I'm kind of an exception. I think a lot of people ask me about it being embarrassing. And I don't know. I, I think it's just grace because I'm like, I, I don't find it embarrassing.

I think I find. Painful. And there's a lot of suffering, but for some reason, I, I don't think I've really felt embarrassed in any of it. And I, I, I think it's just pure grace. It's gotta be or hope or something. I don't know. But yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think, um, if you made, you know, people who do that, who are making that right decision, there's nothing to be embarrassed about.

Mm-hmm I think it's just social pressure, whatever. Right. I think, oh gosh, I set the date and maybe I sent invitations out or save the dates or did all this stuff to prepare for it. And I'm, you know, walking ending this, it can be really hard. Some people don't do that. And I've known people in that situation where they, because they're so invested, they don't, and that is so damaging and it can lead to a scary place.

Really happy for you. And I know that's might sound say, happy you went through that really difficult thing, but no, no, it's it's yeah. That's such a good thing that you guys kind of recognize that and did what was necessary, even though it was really, really hard I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. And that was something I am grateful to have been able to bring up just because I have also noticed how prevalent it is.

And it is something where, you know, I think that people do need to know that they aren't alone in it and know that yeah. It can be such a blessing and can be such a good thing. And yeah. So I'm just happy to be able to share and help people to know that. Yeah, it is, it takes a lot of courage and a lot of bravery and I think the payoff will be huge.

Yeah. Yeah. And just relying on good people. I'm sure you've had a lot, you had a lot of people in your corner who are kind of speaking into and helping you, cuz it can be so hard to make those decisions. When you're in the, kind of the thick of that. So mm-hmm, so good. And I, I love what Dan said on the retreat that you are capable of it.

And yeah, I would echo that to you and to everyone too. I think everyone needs to hear that. And, uh, what you said too is, uh, we're probably gonna struggle more than most people. Which stinks yeah, I know. Right. But, um, but it's true. And I think it's important. I'm glad you brought that up because if we expect that, then it won't be a surprise and we can even prepare and plan for it.

Like, okay, what am I gonna do when. You know, these, my relationships get hard and it's really difficult for me to be vulnerable, to trust when it's, you know, something comes up a conversation where it triggers me about something in my past, like, what am I gonna do? Who am I gonna have in my corner? Whether that's a therapist or a spiritual director or a group of friends or a community, something like that.

I, I think it's really important to acknowledge that. So thanks for, for saying that. And I want to go back to one other thing you said too, like the unaware, this is so common. Mm-hmm for so many of us, it's like, we don't totally understand or appreciate, I don't know if appreciates the right word, but we don't totally grasp how damaging the things that we've been through.

Especially when our family breaks apart. We don't totally understand how that will affect us in years to follow. And you might know this already, but the research clearly shows that the biggest area of our lives that are impacted when we come from our divorce family is our own relationships hands on.

And so. Yeah, it's normal. If you're listening, if you're listening right now and you are in a relationship and you're struggling, or you've been in relationships like that, just know you're normal. It's not fun to be there, but it's not unusual. And the research backs it up as well. And all these stories that we're hearing, just align perfectly with it to, uh, even though it's a sad thing, it's a true thing.

Yep. I agree. Katie, what would you say to someone listening right now who feels really broken? Who feels stuck in life? Who just, maybe they're even at the point of despair, just like, I, I just feel so broken. I don't know what to do about it. What, what words of encouragement especially would you give to them?

I think that this is something that I have needed to hear in the past and would just want people to know just how deeply loved they are and kind of what I was sharing earlier. But yeah, really like, because of the wounds that you experienced, you are really able to invite Christ into those places and they're going to be far more beautiful and glorious than if you hadn't experienced them in the first place.

Um, one of my favorite ways that the Lord works is by bringing far more beautiful things out of something that is seemingly broken or seemingly ugly. Um, that's just one of the ways that he glorifies himself the most. Yeah. Just essentially there's so much hope. And you know, those lies that when you can identify the lies that you hear in your head that are not true, um, that you are loved and that you are enough and that you are worthy.

I think that, yeah. I was so vulnerable in my story, just because I do feel like it, you know, really understanding the, the depth of the, the evil that was there and the ugliness and the, all the things really is a true Testament to the glory of God and the ways that he can really redeem things. And so, yeah, essentially, there's like a very good quote that you are not the sum of your faults and failures.

Um, you're the sum of the father's love for you, which really is just so powerful because I think very often we can identify who we are based on what has happened to us or what we've experienced. And that's just simply not true. And there's just so much hope and just know that I am praying for you and that I am here for you.

If anyone would like to have a conversation or. Yeah, like reach out on either email, Instagram, Facebook, however, um, I'm just so happy to share more. Um, I know that I'm sorry. I, it was a little bit Jesus heavy and that is solely because he is. The most important thing in my life. And if you want to know more about him, I am happy to have a conversation.

I can always like try my best to filter, you know, and just meet you where you're at, but I just deeply care about you, whoever you are, wherever you are, I am here for you and yeah. Would love to support you in any way that you need. Beautiful. Thank you so much for your time for your vulnerability. Uh, I know it's been so helpful for a lot of people.

Um, me included, so thank you for, for being here and yeah. Really grateful that you took the time to do it. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for allowing me to share. It's been very, yeah. Healing and helpful for me too.

If you wanna get in touch with Katie, you can actually email her. Her email is Katie. So K a T I E. And then her last name, um, Mira check, which is spelled M R O C. Z K hotmail.com. We'll throw this in the show notes for you so you can just copy it and email her. And she wanted you to know that yes, Hotmail does still exist.

You could also DM her on Instagram and her handle is at K and then her last name, Mira check, which is M R O C. Z E K the number 12, and then the number 26, 12 26. Again, we'll throw that in the show notes to make it easy for you guys. My biggest takeaway from this episode is just how devastating it is when your mom or your dad is unfaithful.

It's something that we need to talk about more on this show, to be honest with you, because so many of us have been impacted by this just like Katie and the effects of it are huge, huge. It especially makes trusting and loving so much more difficult because in the back of our minds, we're thinking, oh gosh, is this person gonna be unfaithful to me?

And so real healing is needed. There is Katie articulated so well, especially if you wanna love well and build healthy relationships and even a great marriage. And so a question for you to think about if your mom or dad had an affair, how has that affected you, especially in your own relationships, give this some thought, because if you start to recognize how it has affected you, then you could begin to work against it.

You could begin to heal and to grow so that this thing doesn't have power over you. If you wanna share your story with us, we would love to hear it. Some of the benefits of sharing your story first, reflecting on your story is actually healing on a neuro biological level. It actually makes your brain healthier, further writing your story as you would do.

If you shared it with us, is, is also healing. Studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their lives are less depressed, less anxious, healthier, and happier, pretty amazing. And sharing your story, not just thinking about it, not just writing it down, but also sharing it with someone.

Verbally or through writing is also healing on a neurobiological level. It makes you healthier. And then lastly, sharing your story also gives hope and some guidance to people who maybe are struggling. They're going through the same things or similar things that you went through, and you can just offer them some hope and maybe some advice on how to get through it.

The way that you did to submit your story. It just takes three easy steps. Go to restored ministry.com/story. Again, restored ministry.com, ministry singular slash story. You'll just fill out a form that guides you in writing a concise version of your story. And then we'll take that and turn it into an anonymous blog article.

And so we'd love to hear your story. Share your story today at restored ministry dot. Slash story. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 49. Thank you so much for listening. If this has been useful at all, please subscribe and share this podcast with someone you know, who really needs to hear this stuff.

Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

My Heart Began to Tear in Two

5 minute read

This story was written by an anonymous contributor at 31 years old. His parents divorced when he was 8 years old. He gave permission for his story to be shared.

HIS STORY

I was 8 years of age when my mom filed for divorce after finding a man who made her happier than my dad. In the end, my dad wanted the divorce as well. My parents didn't discern their choice to marry very well: my dad didn't really 'love' my mom, and my mom thought she could accept certain character flaws in my dad that, turns out, she could not. (Among other things from both sides). It sounds like they shouldn't have married in the first place.

I hear much of their marriage was unhappy. But, as an adolescent, I was oblivious to much of it. They would fight—yell at one another, primarily. But rarely did it amount to anything, or so it seemed. As far as I was concerned, life was good. My sister and I had numerous friends about our same age in the neighborhood with whom we'd play roller hockey, tag, jump on the trampoline, play in dirt piles, etc. School was good. Sports were enjoyable. We went on family vacations to the beach which were the best. Life was oh so good.

Then one day, shortly after a rough fight, my mom and dad sat my sister and me down in the sunroom, and my mom told us that she and my dad would be spending some time apart for a while. I really didn't understand the ramifications of that until some time later when we were cleaning up our house in order to sell it and move into two separate houses. I remember my mom complimenting me on how clean and orderly my room looked; it was bittersweet receiving the compliment knowing that on the one hand, I was pleasing my mom, and on the other, I was helping mom and dad go their separate ways. My heart began to tear in two in order to follow both.

A few months later my mom and stepdad married and moved into a house in a retirement neighborhood. My dad had moved into a house outside of town where there were no kids. And then the every other week routine began.

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HIM FEEL

Sadness was the prevailing emotion. I was (and still am) sad at the loss of my parents' marriage, our family, a stable home, consistently playing with and visiting friends. My mom had taught us to pray before going to sleep at night when we were quite young. After their divorce, I would frequently pray the "Parent Trap" prayer hoping they would get back together. I also recall times of anger, loneliness, confusion. After a while, I simply stopped feeling anything.

HOW HIS PARENTS' DIVORCE HAS IMPACTED HIM

I feel like I am still uncovering the ways. These effects may be from my parent's divorce or elsewhere; I find it confusing. One effect has been on my internal stability. I can feel anxious and lost even at home. Where is home, by the way? I've noticed a difficulty in making and keeping friendships. Oftentimes I can be quite independent. After the divorce, I began to occasionally skip outings with friends or feigning an illness during sleepovers so I could just be home with mom or dad. After all, I would tell myself, "I only get to see my mom and dad half as much as my other friends." I have difficulty feeling emotions and being vulnerable with others. Sometimes I become aware of this and realize just how oblivious I can be to my emotions. I also experience much confusion and a deep wanting for connection and direction. A big impact has been a lack of trust in romantic relationships. I have felt very sensitive to signs of betrayal from previous girlfriends. This can lead me to close off if I'm not careful.

ADVICE TO SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS HAVE DIVORCED OR SEPARATED

I'd advise the person to share his/her thoughts and feelings with a trusted person as soon as possible, and frequently. Also, maintain your other relationships: with God and with good family and with good friends. See a counselor/therapist as well, someone who is trained to help children of divorce.

HOW TO HELP YOUNG PEOPLE FROM DIVORCED OR SEPARATED FAMILIES

Help him/her process what is happening as soon as possible.

A child of divorced parents needs a consistent listening ear, someone with the disposition to understand as opposed to being understood, and who gives the child time and space to share. The child needs someone who recognizes that when the child says that everything is ok, it's really not ok. The child needs the acknowledgment that what he/she is feeling is real and important. Unfortunately, during a divorce, the parents may not be emotionally available, and, frankly speaking, perhaps they never were. This can lead to the child holding in thoughts and emotions that can lead to future harm.

I think helping the children form healthy relationships is also quite important.

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#048: Fear Became Reality: I Am Just Like My Father | Bart Schuchts

As a boy, Bart Schuchts thought his family was normal. But in reality, it was very broken. When he was five years old, his dad left after cheating on his mom. He remembers his mom crying herself to sleep at night. Seeing the devastation his dad left, he swore to never be like him. 

But in college, his worst fear came true. Sleeping around and using women, he realized: “I am just like my father.” Thankfully, his story didn’t end there. In this episode, he shares:

• How he overcame his anger, lust, depression, despair, and self-hate

• The hurt he felt from opening up to the wrong people about his struggles

• How he learned to have compassion for his father and even forgive him

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• John Paul II Healing Center

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

So often our families look normal on the outside, but on the inside, they're very broken. And that was the experience of my guest today. As a little boy, he honestly thought his family was normal, but eventually it came to light that his dad was cheating on his mom. And following that affair, his dad just left the house, abandoning them.

When my guests were just five years old and he remembers his mom crying herself to sleep at night and seeing all this devastation, he swore never to be like his father. He swore never to hurt women the way that his dad had hurt his mom. But years later in college, his worst fear came true after sleeping around and using women, it hit him in the face.

I am just like my father. Now though he was tempted to despair. Thankfully, his story didn't end there. Eventually he turned everything around, but he shares how he struggled with anger, loss, depression, despair, and even self hate, but eventually was able to overcome those things. He talks about how opening up to the wrong people in his life was actually really harmful.

He explains what it felt like for the wound, from his dad's affair to be ripped open again. When his girlfriend cheated on him, he opens up about how eventually he learned to have compassion on his father and even forgive him to the point where they were able to rebuild their relationship. And in spite of all his brokenness, he talks about how he's been able to build a beautiful marriage, be a father and help people heal through his nonprofit.

Now I'm so excited to share this episode with you. It's such a powerful episode, such an inspiring story that honestly left me speechless at time. This man has suffered. He's made mistakes. He's looked despair right in the eye, but he's come through the other side. And so there's so much hope in this episode, especially if you feel.

Like he did, if you feel like giving up. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 40 Aiden. Today. I speak with Bart. Shoot. Bart is the founder of church on fire.

He has more than 28 years of ministry experience and has been associated with a John Pauli healing center since its inception. Following a desperate plea to God while in an NFL locker room, which you'll hear about in this show, Bart had a powerful encounter with God's love. He is a regular speaker with the John Pauli healing center and has been instrumental in the center's growth.

He's been married for over 25 years and has four children. Now guys, I'll be honest with you. Bart is so real. He's probably one of the most real men I've ever met. It's so inspiring. It's so helpful to talk with someone who's so real now, as you heard, he is a Catholic Christian. And so we talk about God, we talk about faith and if that's not you, if you're not open to anything like that, my challenge to you is this, listen with an open mind.

He's not here to force you into a relationship with God. He's just here to share his story. And I know that even if you don't believe in God, even if you're not open to that right now, you will get something out of this episode. In fact, I know you will relate to his experience a ton. If you don't want anything to do with God.

In fact, if you hate God, I know you're gonna relate to him. Here's my conversation with Bart shoots.

Hey, Bart, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for making time for this. Yeah, Joey, thanks for having me like so many people listening right now. Uh, you come from a broken home. Tell us about that. What happened and how did that impact. Oh, yeah. Joey, I don't know what you're talking about, man. I came from a perfect family.

like all of us, right? Yeah. Uh, you know, it's funny. I, I, I laugh about that, but you know, we actually believe that, which is crazy. I think next to the word deception was our family picture. If you Google that you're on there. Yeah. there we're, but you know, it is how it appeared growing up. My mom and dad, you know, had had seven kids and, uh, I was the second youngest.

Uh, my dad upper middle class worked. IBM, good. Solid family. Went to church, you know, just kind of your, from the outside, everything looked great. And yet when I was two, uh, as the story goes, uh, my mom found out that my father was having an affair and it just shattered everything. And by the time I was five, my dad walked out the door and, uh, we moved from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Down to Miami, which the way I would survive my life at that point was the life of survival. Uh, like you said, in a broken home, just not a lot of people on my street were from broken homes. I was one of the only, which added to my problem. And, uh, it just wasn't as prevalent, you know? And, and, uh, I remember I would go over to my friend's house, you know, and I'd watch them interacting with their fathers.

And I would just look at that and I'd be like, gosh, I don't even know what that's like, you know, mm-hmm . And, uh, I, I would go into my room, my mom's room at night as a little boy, and I'd watch her cry herself to sleep. And, uh, I just grew this deep anger and deep hatred for my father. And yeah. So it's just, it's, it's definitely, it's affected my entire life.

You know, I grew up with a lot of anger, a lot of he hatred, uh, depressed. Uh, disillusioned, just struggling with despair, feeling like I would never really have what I desire because I was a little boy. I desired dad, you know, and desire walked out the door when I was five years old. And, uh, yeah, that, that deeply impacted me and it affected my entire life.

And for most of my life dealt with anger, you know, uh, I wouldn't even say dealt with anger. I just lived out of anger. Yeah. I just kinda angry at the world, you know, just, uh, feeling alone and if it's gonna get done, it's up to me, you know, just all kind of things and just constantly striving, uh, which, which worked as a fuel in my dreams of being a professional athlete, but it, it was destructive, you know, just beating.

At my interior of my heart. Wow. Yeah. And on that last point, that's, um, kind of tricky, a tricky situation because you, in one way, like you said, it worked and so you were affirmed in continuing that behavior because, um, did you played professional sports, right? You played in football, um, in the NFL. Yeah.

Well, I played, uh, college football at Florida state and then had a chance at my childhood dream of playing in the NFL, uh, when I was with the Tempe Buccaneers. Wow. Uh, in camp is actually when my life took a major detour, uh, for the better, but it was the end of that dream in the beginnings of other things.

But yeah, so, and then I played arena football, which is, uh, one is, uh, not heard of arena football. The way I describe it is if you. Get beer thrown on you and make no money play arena football. it was indoor professional football. And I did that for four years. Okay. Wow, incredible. So you, you reached a very high level in the athletic world, so, you know, it's, it's interesting to see like your idea of like self sufficiency and just pushing yourself and living out of that drive that anger that you felt, um, it worked in a way.

And so that was probably confusing, um, in other areas of your life, where it was destructive. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, it, it, by, by outward appearance, you know, not much like my family growing up by outward appearance, things looked great. You know, I remember I was at Florida state. People would say, gosh, you have it made, you know, you're playing in front of whatever.

We had 70,000, 80,000 fans. And, you know, back when I played 1987, uh, we finished 11 and one my senior year. Uh, wow. We finished number two in the country and you know, we played major games, you know, national TV all the time, big, big time games, big time moments. And yeah, from the outside, everything looked great.

And, and I was, I was putting on that facade, you know, and, and, uh, everything looked great. But what people didn't know is when I was alone in my room, And, uh, the, the self hatred, the shame, the, the depression, anger, fear, disillusionment to life, all the things that were there when I was a little kid, uh, would pop up when I was alone in my room, you know, kind of like ping pong balls.

If you tried to hold a ping pong ball, the water it's gonna come up, you know, mm-hmm and, uh, these things would pop up, but I would just ignore them and just go, no, man. And I would just go get busy. And, uh, just living the, the quote college life, you know, what everyone told me was the best years of your life, you know?

And I'd be like secretly in my heart. I'd be like, if these are the best years of my life, I don't know if I wanna live anymore. Cause I'm miserable. You know, that was, that was my interior reality externally. That's not what people saw. Wow. And that's so common. We've seen that a lot with people, especially who come from broken families, like.

On the exterior, we can actually be very successful people like high functioning, good in school, good at our jobs. Um, but like you said, on the insight, we're just like falling apart and, uh, and it's, unless you articulate that or, you know, bring someone in, be vulnerable. It's really hard to, for people to understand that.

Cuz they see things going well for you and, and, and how do you share it? You know, I remember several times going to some of my best friends, you know, uh, some of my teammates, I remember having some, you know, some deep open conversation, at least for what I was capable of at that time. And I remember going to one of my friends and going, man, don't you don't you ever just feel, you know, guilty or, or don't you ever just feel bad?

You know, like, you know, cuz I was just living this lost life and don't you ever feel depressed, you know? And he'd be like, he'd looked at me like what is wrong with you, man? What is wrong with you? So it's like, didn't exactly encourage me. To share it more, you know, like fortunately I had a brother, you know, my brother, Bob, who, uh, was, is, was a psychologist.

And so every once in a blue moon, I would give him a call, but honestly, I didn't wanna call him because he would always tell me about religion or, you know, God, or coming back to the church and be like, yeah, great, Bob, that's you a man. But I, I didn't, I didn't want to hear that. I wasn't in the place to hear that.

And, uh, I mean, he, he, he would give me great advice and great counsel as well, but that was interiorly of me. I was like, you know, I, I was hesitant to reach out, um, because I didn't want to hear that. I just wanted someone to gimme some answers and help me right now. Uh, in my, in my, I. Pain. And, uh, and, and my brother, Bob did help me a lot, but I, I just didn't reach out because I'm concerned that someone, everyone had an agenda, you know, they either were gonna tell me I was weird or there's something wrong with me.

Hey, get your act together, tough it up, you know, or, or, you know, try to get me to come to church or, or whatever, and just, I didn't really know of a place that I could just go and just go, Hey, I don't know what's going on inside of me. Can you just genuinely help me? yeah, man. I can relate so much with that.

I remember. Yeah. Like freshman in college, I was dating a girl and I just was going through a really rough time. Like for months I just felt numb. Just felt nothing. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm and dealt with anxiety and depression during that time. And I just didn't know how to articulate it to. I literally couldn't find the words and, and I'm, I was so afraid that if I opened up to her, she just wouldn't handle it.

Well, even though she was a great girl, um, she just came from such a different background, like a great family. She was like a very healthy and whole person. And I just felt like she wouldn't understand. And I didn't know how to go about that. And I, I really struggled to even understand what was going on inside of me.

Like you articulated so well, right there. So, yeah, man, it's a tough spot to be in. Ah, it's a tough spot. I remember a couple relationships that I had, you know, girls that I, you know, I loved, you know, one of 'em I thought I was gonna marry her and you know, we were close and, and I remember sharing some of this depression and, and some of these places, interiorly and boy, she just, she didn't know what to do, you know?

Yeah. She just went through, you know, and, uh, I think it was the beginning of the end of our relationship. She eventually cheated on me, you know? And then I had another girl, you know, it was just kind of infa. It was infatuation. I wouldn't even say it was love, you know, it was infatuation and a few months in, you know, I shared with her, you know, cause I just, I felt like, okay, here's some people I could share.

What's really going on inside of me. And I just, I shattered her image of me, you know, this exterior image and it wasn't long after that, you know, she says I've never loved somebody and hated somebody so much in my life. And then the relationship ended and I'm like, okay, I can't share this with anybody.

They're gonna reject me. Which was really the, the core of my wound anyway, you know, which I wasn't really in touch with, but abandonment, my father walked out the door, so just kept playing over and over and over again. I felt like I was in a trap. I didn't know how to get out. Wow. That is that's insane.

Honestly, it's so, so hard to go through because like you said, she was that that girl was more in love with the idea of you than you. Exactly. And so you learned that, okay. I'm just gonna be what people want me to be, what they need me to be. And that is so common. We see that left and right with people, young people come from broken saying it.

Yep. Good way of saying it. Yep. I want to go to what you said about the girl kind of withdrawing and then cheating on you. That is so devastating, especially cuz you saw that growing up, like you were cheated on in a very real way. Yeah. As a boy. Right? Talk about that. If you would, how did that impact you?

Yeah. Boy sh devastated me, you know, you know, here, I think I'm I found the one, you know, this is my freshman year of college. Like I, I found the one, you know, my intentions going into college was, you know, I wanna be a, I wanna be a good guy. You know, I wanna, I wanna reach my dreams. I wanna get married one day, have a family.

I wanna, you know, those were my intentions and, and honestly, a lot of it was I wanna be different than my dad. You know? Yeah. I don't wanna be like my dad, you know, in fact, I, I made a vow, which I didn't know much about, but, you know, I made a vow. I will never be like my father. I will never hurt a woman the way my father hurt my mother, you know?

And so I, I was determined. I'm gonna be different, you know, I'm not gonna be like that, man. You know, I'm gonna be different. And so here was, man, I meet this girl. I'm like, okay, here we are. You know, finally I met my wife. My first year of college is amazing. And, uh, and like I said, you know, a few months in, uh, I start disclosing some of these darker secret places in my heart and this place of depression and pain and, and, you know, she didn't know what to do with it, but she didn't say anything.

You know, she just kind of acted like it was normal, but I could feel her distance. I could feel, you know, that. And then the next year, so we went through summer and I was trying to get ahold of her and she wasn't returning my calls. I'm like, what's going. And then, uh, the next year I go back for, for football camp, we had to be there two weeks before all the other students for our practices.

And, uh, she was supposed to be back cuz she was a swimmer in college and, and uh, she wasn't back. And so I kept trying to call she wasn't returning my calls. Finally, she returns my call. And she says, yeah, I'm not coming back to school. And I found somebody else. I'm like, what do you mean? You found someone else?

You know, it's like, what are you talking about? And man, I couldn't, I couldn't function. I literally, I couldn't eat. I mean, for at least a week it felt like two and my emotions, my, it was just nodded up. I had stomach aches, you know, I was just, it was so deep. I was like, what the heck? And then I couldn't function.

And then football, I wasn't doing well. And it just was, you know, I, I kept making bad plays and it was, it was rough. It just, it impacted everything. And it just sunk me into a deep depression and it was like, oh my gosh. You know, I don't know if, I don't know if I can ever find wild. I don't know if I'll ever find what I'm looking for.

You know? And I wasn't connecting any of this to what happened when I was a kid or my upbringing. I wouldn't, you know, and I, I said, my upbringing. I had a great family. My mom, you know, she was amazing. She just loved us. She, she was, she provided all she could, but she couldn't make up for the Roy, you know, of, of the absence of my father who walked out when I was five.

But yeah, it just, all this stuff was just hitting those deeper places. I had no idea. I was just, I was just spiraling. I, I had no idea. And then I just had to toughen up, you know, and I learned from playing football, I was like, oh, you get you fall down, you get back up, you know? Okay. I'll, I'll get back up.

And so, you know, within a couple weeks, I'm back and I'm performing and you know, all the things you said before, you know, I'm just externally, I'm doing fine now. I'm doing good. You know, I'm experiencing some success, you know, but interiorly, gosh, train. Yeah. Uh, I hear you. It's just heart wrenching to, to hear and just I'm sure to think back that younger version of you just going through all that it, yeah, it just, it's so hard.

And that's so interesting. What you said about not connecting with connecting your current struggles or the struggles you were facing then with then with the, the issues and your past with your broken family. That's super common. We've seen like that lack of awareness, uh, seems to be everywhere and it takes some maturity.

It takes some awareness. Like I mentioned to really connect the dots. I'm just curious. Why, why is that? And how can someone. Go through that process who maybe is in that place of like, not, they're not aware. Um, how do they come to that awareness? Yeah, boy, that's a good question. I'm not sure I'm not, I don't know if there's a blueprint.

I mean, I sure. You know, it's, it's, um, I think it's a protective mechanism that we all have, you know, it's like we can, we can handle so much. And, and as people we're amazing, you know, our, our resiliency is, is amazing. You know, like some of the things that people gone through, I mean, makes, makes my story look like nothing.

And, uh, I mean, some of the things that I've heard over the years and some, you know, it's just like, oh my gosh, it's so painful. Just listen to, and I just think, you know, the, the way we're wired, the way we're built, you know, we're very resilient. You know, we can persevere, we can endure, we can, we can externally succeed and, and make things work for me.

It just all caught up to me. You know, it, it just, there just came a point. Like there was several times through college that I'd be like, okay, I gotta change, man. I gotta change. I didn't know how to change. I, I really did have change. I remember there was a time me and this, my friend, uh, he was an offensive lineman.

His nickname was peanut. He was a good old country boy, you know, from Georgia and big old boy. I mean, he was probably six, five by two 80, just massive built and wow, just a good old, good old boy and, uh, a good friend of mine. And I remember he and I one time, maybe that same year, maybe my freshman year of college, I don't remember.

I remember we were sitting out, you know, on a steps and, uh, he and I were having as deep a conversation as we were both capable at that time. Mm-hmm and I just, I was saying to him, I said, you know, I need to change, man. And he says, yep. Yep. and, uh, there was a leaf on the ground and, uh, I, I reached down and grabbed this leaf and I flipped it over.

I said, peanut, it's time, we turn over a new leaf. And he says, yep. Lasted about a month. That was, you know, that just typified my college years. I'm like, okay, I know I gotta change. I know I gotta change because after, after a few relationships ended, I, I came to the point of going love doesn't exist, you know, love doesn't exist.

And so I just lived for temple pleasure. Now I just walked away from everything I believed and valued and, and just gave up. I was so depressed and so discouraged. So disillusioned I there is gave up. And it was in that season and I would just feel guilty. And when I was alone in my room and full of shame and self hatred and all this stuff, and I was like, I gotta change.

And you know, I just didn't know how, honestly, I didn't know how until my senior year is like everything caught up to me and then it was like, oh gosh, okay. How do I change? You know, that, that, that, that was that work for me. You know? And I, I think for every one of us to answer your question, I just think that we each, we each have our own journeys, you know?

And the biggest thing I would say is never give up, never give up because, because there's gonna be answers, there are answers and, and you just have to keep persevering. And I knew that. And so I just kept going, you know, I, I, I, I, I entertained taking my life so many times and I was like, no, I'm not a quitter.

I'm not gonna do that. I'm never gonna quit. I'm gonna persevere. And, you know, little did I know, you know, that I would, I would make my way through it, but I, but I. Amazing. It's hard to, to know that in the moment. Right. Cause everything can just feel hopeless, but you're in a much better spot now. So yeah. I am curious what, what changed?

Like what happened? How did you eventually find healing? It sounds like it was a long journey, but, but what changed? Yeah. Yeah, it was, you know, and you know, through my four, actually five years of college, I, uh, I tried everything. Honestly. I tried everything. I mean, I got into positive mental attitude stuff and you know, and I'd put on this good, positive mental attitude and it worked, you know, I, I was able to succeed.

I would, uh, go to, you know, psychology. I tried, I tried everything I could think of, you know, relatively good things. I, I went to church a few times, you know, I, I, I would go and give it a shot and go to church. And that would last me about a week or a month, you know? And then I would go right back to my vomit, you know, by my vomit, as you know, after my freshman year, when I just gave up on love, it was just, it was just partying, womanizing, you know, just, just living.

Totally lost from who I really was. And just, it just totally just, I mean, a good guy externally, but just, just totally lost. So it was my senior year, you know, and I remember my dream was to play in the NFL. And so in the football field, I had some successes, ups and downs. Now it's my senior year and I'm starting on that team that I said eventually finished 11 and one number two in the country.

And I'm on track for my dream. And I'm like, this is great, you know? And, uh, got a bunch of friends and success and you know, the team's great, everything looks wonderful. First play of our second game. I got injured and I missed four games. And in that season I was confronted with my life and it had happened several times over the five years of my college journey.

But this one just feels like the last straw. And, um, I actually, I met this girl. And, uh, we're just talking at a, at a bar and, um, she we're hanging out for about 45 minutes, you know, or drinking and hanging out. And I had intentions, you know, and here we were, and, and she, uh, looks at me and she says, I hate you.

I'm like, what, well, what are you talking about? I mean, we just met, you know, and she says, not only do I hate you, my whole sorority hates you. And I was like, whoa, what do you mean? I mean, your sorority knows me. Yes. And then she mentions three girls. It is painful even to recall. I mean, this is probably 37 years ago, you know, and I, it's still painful.

And she says, you know, she mentions three girls. She says, because of you, each one of them tried to take their own lives and went, oh my God, you're kidding me. And I thought to myself, whoa, this isn't a game, man. And then what hit me? What hit me in that moment was, oh my gosh. I'm just like my father. You know, I made that vow.

I will never be like my father. I will never hurt a woman the way my father hurt my mother and I'm worse. And my self hatred man was just like, whew, all I just wanted to crawl under a rock and die. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. I just hated myself. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm a real jerk

And uh, and then this girl says to me, a beautiful girl, she says to me, besides I'm a Virgin, I was like, what? Tell me about this. I was intrigued. I was like, whoa. And I remembered back to when I was 18 years old. When I was in high school, I said to my buddies, when I get married, I wanna be a. And they, of course, you know, said that's a wonderful idea.

No, they laughed at me. They called me names. Uh, I mean, gosh, I will never say that again. Within a month of that, I had lost my virginity and then it, it, my story of the next six years, you know, uh, it caught up to me now and this girl says, I'm a Virgin. I'm like, oh my gosh. Wow. Is it possible? Like, is that even possible?

This girl obviously chose this, you know, like, is this even possible? And it just, it opened my eyes to like, hope. Like maybe my life could be different. Like maybe I can change. Maybe I really can change. Maybe I can marry someone. Maybe I can have a good marriage. Maybe I don't have to be like my father, maybe, maybe things can be different.

And, and that began a process. And then it was a few months later that I get invited to the Tempe buckers and as a free agent, which those listen to me, that just means, you know, you, you didn't get drafted. You were brought in, they, they paid you a little bit of money. And you have a chance to try out and make the team, but it's not a great chance, but I had a chance mm-hmm and so it was there, it was there in between practices, in the temp bay Buckner's locker room that my life radically changed.

And I don't know if you want me to go into that or not go into that, but that's, that's, that's what really happened. I needed something beyond myself. Uh, I think it's an alcoholics anonymous. They talk about a higher power. I needed something beyond myself to help me out of the pit that I was in. And I didn't know what it was.

I mean, I grew up with religion. I mean, I, I, I grew up, you know, my family went to church. I, I tried in college, but it, it, it, it wasn't clicking for me. It wasn't working. Uh, and it was there. It was there on the, on the, actually on the toilet. in the locker room, the Tempe Buccaneers on the, on the doorstep of my dream that I just came to an awakening and just said, uh, God, I don't even know if you will.

I really don't even know if you will. Uh, I need you to show me. If you're real, show me you're real. And that began a year of just things I never saw coming that were just so amazing and, and have, have radically changed my life. Wow. Incredible. Yeah. I, yeah. We'd, I'd love to hear, um, kind of where it went from there, from that locker room.

Yeah. So I I'm saying that prayer on the toilet , uh, in the locker room of template, bucking it a strange place, you know, for this to happen. Yeah. And, uh, and before, before I was, I was actually petting myself on the back going look, how far you come, man, look what you've overcome. You know, you're at the doorstep of your dream.

This is what you wanted since you were eight or nine years old, you know, I was just kind of pat myself on the back and it hit me. I'm like, man, I'm M. I'm I'm miserable. Uh I'm I'm so depressed. I don't wanna live. This is what I thought would make me happy. This is what I thought every man wanted. And it's not enough.

And I don't know where to turn. I don't even know if I wanna live, what do I do? I wasn't gonna go talk to my teammates. mm-hmm, hasn't gone well for me in the past, you know, unfortunately. And, um, I was like, what am, what do I do? And sitting right there, I just, I cried out, like I said, I just said, okay, God, Hey, remember me?

You know, part here. I need to know if you're real. I mean, I know Jesus died for me 2000 years ago. I that's great, but what good does that do me right now? Mm-hmm I need to know if you're real and if you're real show you so real to me, if not. I don't wanna live anymore. I'm done. I'm worn out. So now it's a week later.

No one knows that that's just private in my own heart. And no one knows, like I said, this prayer and I, uh, a week later I get the dreaded call. My dream of playing in the NFL comes to an end. I go back to Tallahassee and here he is, again, my brother, Bob, eight years older than me. We're playing golf. And he's telling me about this men's week.

And he went to, and he's telling me about some of these guys' stories. He doesn't know. I had said this prayer. I I'd said, I said this prayer. And he's telling me about these men and I'm listening and he's surprised I'm listening because usually I'm like, yeah, Bob, that's your thing, but I'm listening. And then he says, Hey, Bob, we have another weekend coming up.

Would you like to go? And I remembered my prayer and I said, yeah, Bob, I'll go. Oh, really? You'll go. Yeah, I'll go. . And uh, you know, I jokingly say if, if Bob would've said you're gonna be on a weekend with 50 men. Who were gonna hug one another and say, I love you. I would've never gone. yeah. Right. I was not ready for that.

And, and, uh, but sure enough, here I am on this weekend with 50 men who are hugging one another and saying, I love you. And I was uncomfortable with that. I was stiff as a board, but you know, I was there and, uh, it is, it was 10 men shared their, their testimonies, kinda like I'm sharing now. And two of them deeply impacted me.

And, uh, one was a politician who talked about how he had been unfaithful to his wife and destroyed his family. I felt like my father was up there repenting. I was like, oh, this is touching me. Oh, this is strange, you know? Yeah. And then another man, uh, he was JC man of the year. He wanted to be JC man of the year and said for 10 years, I sacrificed my marriage, my children to be this business man of the year.

And he got invited to New York and among all the men, they call out his name. They hand him a plaque. He makes a speech. And as he is walking off the stage, he hears a voice in his head, said book in your hand. He said, I looked at my hand and I saw a piece of wood. With my name on it. And he said for this stinking piece of wood, I sacrificed my entire life.

He just wept. And he said everywhere, he went, he just started weeping. He would go to convenience store and he would just start weeping. Wow. And, uh, and then he said, all of a sudden, he just started feeling that's presence. And, uh, and, and so I'm listening and I'm like, okay, this is, this is interesting. Now it's Sunday.

And you're sitting around these tables. Have you ever been to one of these weekends? You know, there's, there was six men to a table, 50 men in the room and you're doing little things and a little skits and little things, you know, little, little too cheesy for me, to be honest with you. Mm-hmm I was there. I, I stayed and, um, and then you get letters from loved ones and, and, uh, Bob who's on the weekend with.

Writes me a letter. You, so Bob has always been in my life and influential in my life. Even growing up, he was the one stable one, you know, and he, uh, he was kind of a father figure in some way. He's eight years older than me. And, uh, here he is on the weekend with me and he writes me this letter and Bob says, bar, I just wanna let you know.

I love you. And I'm proud of you and I'm reading this going, what is he drinking? And what is he talking about? He loves me. I don't love me. He's proud of me. What are you proud of me for? I just failed at the only thing that I was good at. I'm I'm what do you mean? You know, and so I thought, well, I should thank him.

So I get up, he sees me, we meet in the middle of the room. The guy reminded me of my father and the politician was standing behind us. He says, you two brothers need to hug. And he pushed Bob and I together. And he just, the walls of my heart just collapsed. I just started sobbing. I don't remember having cried like that ever in my life.

And I'm sobbing. I mean, it was like a damn broke open, and I'm sobbing in Bob's arms, just wailing and Bob's crying. And I look around the room and every man's crying and I, I feel this presence fill the room and I'm like, whoa, this feels great. What is this? You know, and I'm, I'm just sobbing. And then interiorly, I hear this voice and, and I know it's God.

He says, Bart, I'm your father. I'm a father to the fatherless and I love you. And I lost it and I just absolutely fell apart. And I was like, whoa, man. And then there was a priest there and I went to confession and I mean, I unloaded all my mess and, uh, and I told him, I said, man, just, uh, a few weeks ago I was in the locker room with the Tempe buckers and I cried to God and I said, God, I need to know if you're real.

And today he showed himself real. I said, I wanna give my life to Christ. I wanna follow him for the rest of my life. That was 32, 33 years ago. And, uh, it's honestly, it's my biggest passion. And it is the reason my life changed. I mean, it was like in a moment I encountered what I've been looking for my whole life, which was love, you know, God doesn't just love us.

He is love itself. And I honestly, I didn't experience that in, in, in church. I didn't experience that in my Catholic school to be quite honest with you. Um, maybe it was my fault, but I, I, I never experienced that until. I was, what was I? 23, 24 years old. I'd come to the end of myself. And that's when it was almost like he was waiting for me.

And he is like, okay, now I can, now I can move. Now I can, now I can penetrate past these barriers, these walls and, and get down to his heart. I didn't realize all the walls that I had built up. I didn't realize all the self defenses that I had. I mean, if someone would've talked to me about God or told me about something, I would've, it would've been like, you know, to beware the dog sign, you know, they'd have got close with, oh, you know, I just, I didn't wanna hear it.

And, uh, I, I was just, I was hardened and I was, but it was, it was when the walls of my heart broke down, but it took some circumstances that honestly woke me up. And then, and then God had room to move in my heart. It wasn't religion that grabbed me. It was, it was God himself and, you know, good religion represents that good religion brings us into that kind of experience and the encounter, but it was, it was him, it was, it was his presence.

And, uh, it was, it, it changed me forever. Wow, incredible. So inspiring. And like you said, you know, if you would've tried to do this on your own or had someone try to orchestrate all this, it wouldn't have worked. And so it's amazing how, yeah, God, God works in mysterious ways. And it's so good to, to hear you were able to, to turn things around.

Cause there's so many people who go exactly through what you went through and they don't find that help and that hope and just devastating. It's so sad, Joey, it's so sad, you know, and, and I get it, you know, I get it. Um, but it's just so sad. It's so sad that, that one it's sad that, that we, as the church.

Have not done a better job of just representing that love. Yeah. Just being honest, you know, we gotta own that. We, we haven't done, we haven't done a good enough job of just bringing that presence and bringing people into an encounter and, and, and loving people, you know, so often we're judging, you know, I felt judged.

I felt judged growing up. I, I, I did, I did not feel, I did not feel the love now. People probably tried, you know, but my barriers were so thick that, you know, I didn't let them in, but it's, it's sad. You know, it's really sad. So many people are hurting and, and just needing, needing to be loved, needing to be seen, needing, to be heard, needing to be value.

And, uh, frankly, I don't, I don't think we've done a good job of that, you know? And I think that's changing. I think we're, we're waking up, but it's, you know, people like you, you know, that are, that are sharing the heart, you know, the, the things that really matter, you know, the depths of the heart, we all have a heart, you know, we all have that in common.

You know, we could talk about all the things that divide us, whether it's religion, whether it's race, whether it's politics, all that stuff. That's just the external garbage, you know, the reality is we all have a heart and when we meet each other at the place of the. That's that's when things really start to happen, at least that's, that's my story.

That's when things really happened and changed. Yeah. No, it's incredible. And I'm so inspired by you and your vulnerability and the work that you've done. It's incredible. And I, I wanna share that with our audience, with everyone listening right now, but before we get to that, let's talk about your father.

So obviously there was just a lot there, a lot of wounds there. Tell us, how did you overcome that, that hatred of your father? Oh yeah. Uh, and that's, that's, that's, that's a great question and a great, great journey. You know, as I said, I hated him. I, I, I, I hated him. I had no relationship with him. I don't remember him.

He left when I was. I had, there was times when I saw him and it just wasn't a pleasant experience. I didn't know him. Um, there was a time when I was 12 or 13, I went and visited him and that was good and painful at the same time. Cuz he just sat on his Lazyboy chair and here's this man who's called my dad.

I just want relationship with him. We did have an impactful, uh, conversation, but it was, I didn't, I didn't know him, you know, I didn't know him. And so here it was after I encountered God, the father, you know, and it had just, it changed. Um, it was a whole journey and I went to an Institute of ministry. I, I did a lot of things in that time.

Went through, got freedom from what I think probably was a sex addiction. And a lot of things changed in my heart. And in my life, there was a lot, a lot has, has happened in the last 33 years. But one of the things that happened, it was probably three, four years after that encounter that I just shared, I was just, I was just alone.

I actually went out into the woods for eight days. wow. With just a hammock, a tent, water, a journal in a Bible. And, uh, I, while I was there, one of the things God was speaking to me about was to forgive my father. And I was like, no, I can't forgive that, man. I actually had a name form. It started with an a and it would hold.

I said, there's no way I'm gonna forgive him. And, uh, and this is how candid I was with God. I'm like, no, I'm not forgiven him. I'm not forgive him. And then I, I read and I read a scripture and it says, unless you forgive, you will not be forgiven. And I honestly had the mindset of fine. Then you don't have to forgive me.

You know, I was not gonna forgive this man. I mean, I was like, no way. I felt like I was giving him, you know, a pass, like, oh, it's okay, dad, you know, it's okay. No, it's not okay. You ruined my, you ruined my life and no, I am not gonna forgive him. And, um, and, and I was just hard, man. It took me a while. It took me a while.

And then one day I was actually reading another scripture and it says a good tree produces good fruit, a bad tree produces bad food. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit and a bad tree cannot produce good food. And as I'm reading this, all of a sudden, I start looking over my family tree, my mom's side, my bad's side.

And I saw all the destruction, just the, the affairs, the divorces, the drugs, the alcohol, the womanizing, the, you know, the, you name it. I just was seeing it. It was like, whoa, my gosh, my family, tree's a mess. And you know, and, and we, we have a great family and, and, but yet. We all have our brokenness in our dysfunctions.

And it was like, it was just being magnified. And I was like, oh my gosh. And then I saw my own journey and I was like, oh man. And I'm some of the worst fruit on this tree. You know, I'm like nine college years were just horrible. And some reason in the midst of all this is I was just owning my own mess.

All of a sudden, I just had a compassion for my father. I was like, you know what? My father's just like me. He, he was lost and broken and, and didn't try, didn't know how to get past his own struggles. And that's what led to his decisions that were very destructive. And that's what led to my decisions that were very destructive.

And I was like, all of a sudden, I was just like, I was able to forgive him cuz I had already been forgiven a few years earlier. Jesus had forgiven me and I just felt cleansed. And yet I wasn't able to forgive my dad. And then here, all of a sudden I had this compassion and I was able to forgive him and it was just like this weight off of my shoulder.

So it's like, oh my gosh, you know, I have a compassion for my father. I, I get it. I understand. It's not okay. I understand, you know, forgiveness is one of those things. It's like, we think, okay, I'm gonna forgive and, and okay, that's getting them off the hook. There's no way I'm gonna forgive that person for what they did.

They grow my life. Now, I think true forgiveness is sitting down and counting the cost. You know, you gotta count a cost before you can forgive a debt, you know? And it's like, so it's like just sitting through and going, okay, dad, this is what you cost me. You know, you cost me my childhood. You cost me my, you cost me the, the pain I watched my mom and my siblings go through all the things that you cost me and my journey and my life, you know, my choice is yes, but you know, if you were there and then, and I just kind of went through it all in my, in my own head and my own imagination, I was just like, you know, and I just counted the cost.

I didn't hold back. I just, I just kind of let him have it in my imagination, you know? And then I was like, okay, all right. He's he's just like me. All right, dad. I forgive you. I didn't know this Bob had done similar around the same season of time. And then it was just a, a little while after this few months after this, uh, Bob reached out to my dad, my brother, Wayne who's two years older than me played football at Virginia and played, tried the NFL as well.

And his and my dream was to play in the NFL together, successful business man at the time and still is, but was, that was kind of his life not going to church. My brother, Dave, um, my brother, Dave, when my dad left, he was 13. He became a heroin addict in and out of prisons and, uh, just lost and, and is so Bob invites him.

He comes our half brother rich, who is the result of my father, uh, second marriage, which my mom didn't know about my brother-in-law Nick, my brother-in-law Ken and myself. We all went to this men's event that Bob invited us to, and everyone said, Wow. And here we are with our dad and we're under a gazebo.

My dad very close. We don't know him. I mean, here's this man called dad? I don't know. As a father, it's just really strange. And, um, we're sharing and talking and, and interacting. And we started asking our dad some hard questions because the nature of the, of the mens of it, he was open and he shared his childhood.

He shared the affairs. He shared his journey. He had regret. And, uh, and it was this real open conversation when this weekend ended. I didn't know this, but I'm with my brother, Wayne. And again, Wayne and I shared football together, but we didn't share it this level, that what was about to happen. And, uh, the phone rings and Wayne picks up the phone and I'm listening as well.

And it's our brother, Dave and our brother, Dave told Wayne and I that he had aids. He had gotten a hold of a dirty needle to heroine. It had gotten aids. And Wayne and I put the phone down, embraced one another and just started sobbing, sobbing. And, uh, it was just this brokenness. And then we watched our brother Dave go through this process of his body, just dwindling.

He actually lived his last year's and my brother Wayne's house in the process of his dying and suffering my father, my mother, all my siblings. Uh, we'd all gather at Wayne's house and to take care of Dave. I mean, just broken humbling times, you know, people having to bathe him, change him, shriveling down.

I mean, it just really difficult, painful time, but in the midst of that difficulty, We had healing as a family. Wow. We would cry in one another's arms. We would forgive our dad, sent us all a letter asking us to forgive him. And he was for being an alcoholic and his choices and the different things, and all this healing was happening and it was miraculous.

It was just amazing healing. And then after Dave died, Dave died on my brother Wade's birthday in his house, in my brother Bob's arms. And my father's arm breathed his last in my father's arms. And at his funeral, we all read excerpts from Dave's Bible. So babe, David had a change of life in this process and Dave would highlight these scriptures and then write these notes that it was his desire that his, his suffering, his illness would bring healing to our family.

And that's exactly what happened. Uh, very profound. Uh, and then, uh, started having a relationship with my father. We started going to men's events together. Some of the men's events, Bob and I would be speaking, I would share very candidly, some of the things I'm sharing now, uh, even more detail, the hatred that I had for my father, my father would be in the audience and people would go up to my father and they would say, how are you doing with this?

You know, how are you handling your sons being so candid about this? And our father's answer was, I think it's beautiful that God could take my mess and my mistakes and redeem it. And, and in turn he said, I'm so proud of my boys, you know, and just beautiful. And then his, his last year of life, I mean, there's just, there's so much more I could tell you, but just, just beautiful.

I mean, God's redemption is incredible and he's so real, so much more real than, than, than we even allow people to see . Yeah. Um, it just it's, it's, it's incredible. Uh, the forgiveness, I, I love my father. He, he died a couple years ago and just had a beautiful. Last month of his life, where he visited all his kids and just more healing and more things.

And I don't know if you want me to go in any of that, but it's just, they're all, you know, beautiful. Just, just beautiful things that God did. I mean that that's the only place I can give the credit. There's no way we could have orchestrated any of this amazing, like you're literally making me tear up.

It's just unbelievable how much change happened, how beautiful the transformation was of your family and, wow. Wow. I, I don't, I'm a little speechless, to be honest with you. Yeah. Yeah. So beautiful. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I'm sure we could talk forever. Sure. You have so many stories. I, I did wanna know, comparing your life now to what it was, you know, when you were in college, like contrast that for us.

Like, what is it like? I could never, I could never have imagined what my life would've been like two years past that point. I didn't know I was gonna live honestly. I was daily fighting just to, just to keep persevering and, and living. And thank God thank God. I never quit. You know, I never quit. That's one of my greatest strengths is I never quit.

I persevere, I get up, you know, I fall down, I get up, you know, and I'm so glad I I'm so glad I've had that. And, and you know, a lot of that's been instilled from my family, my mother, um, just to never quit, you know? And thank God. So yeah, man, here I am now 30 whatever years it is now later, I'm 57 years old, married to my wife, Brooke.

We've been married 25 years. We have four children, three girls, boy, 24, 20, about to be 2218 and then 15. I I'm, I'm traveling the country. Sharing my life, my story, hoping to do the same thing you were doing, which is bring hope in life and, and, and, and, and help help people, you know, help people. I just remember all the times, I just felt so hopeless and helpless and powerless and just, oh man.

And I wanna see, I wanna see, I want to give people hope, you know, but I know it's not by just giving them a bunch of nice things. It's it's, it's, it's it's by the power of God. Yeah. That's that's my passion. I'm I'm living a dream, living a dream. Amazing. Amazing. Like, God is good. It's so incredible to see that the change in your life.

And it's so inspiring too. I know you've given me hope and I know everyone listening, uh, as well. What would you say to someone listening right now? Who is moved by your story, but maybe they're like, I'm not ready for this God stuff. Yeah. What would you say to them? How can they heal? What steps can they take?

Yeah. I mean, I, I get it. I hope you hear that in my journey. I get it. And I get it. I wasn't ready for the God stuff either. You know, and honestly, in some ways I'm still not, you know, I don't like the way it's represented. Sometimes I don't like the way I represen him sometimes. You know, I, I, but, but he is our source of life.

I mean, he is, he is our source of life. He's one who created us. He's the one, he is the answer, but it's not necessarily the way he's been present. That, you know, it's and like I said earlier, you know, we need to own that. So forgive me on behalf of the church for misrepresenting him, because when you encounter him himself, when I encountered him in that moment, it was like, I realized, oh my gosh, this is what I've been looking for my whole life.

I've just been looking for the father's love. You know, he, he is the answer. He is the answer, but honestly just, just pay attention to your heart. No, don't, don't, don't put up all the, the walls and the facades. That's, that's, that's only hurting you, you know, a and as I know that from my own journey, it's only hurting you.

Yeah. You gotta be careful who you let in, you know, those vulnerable places, but there are people that can help and reach out, but just like me and the silence of your own. Just say God show me, show me, just lead me. Show me amazing. Amazing. I know, uh, you, like you said, you travel the country doing ministry and speaking to people.

Uh, what do you guys offer? How can people learn more about you if they want to? Yeah, well, I have, uh, I do, I, I work for two different ministries. One, uh, is with my brother, Bob JP two healing center. It's a JP small lives, uh, JP small life, small eye healing center.org. Uh, you can go on there and you can see all the events that we offer and different things we offer.

And then I have my own ministry, my own website. It's called church on fire.live. L I V E. You can go on there. I have online courses, uh, which are different sources, different tools I've won on knowing purpose and, and desire. I have other ones, an equipping material that I have. I have one that tells the story more in detail called encountering the father's love.

I have some from events that I had done, some things on there that I, I try to price low, so that make it available to people. You can go on there. Incredible. Okay. Thank you. I even saw some of those you were given away for free, which is super generous of you. And I wanted to, uh, yeah. Give you an opportunity to just share maybe one story of transformation that you've seen in helping people through your different ministries.

Uh, cuz I know you guys are super effective at what you do. And I just want people to know that if they were to work with you, that you know, maybe it wouldn't happen the same as the things that you've seen, but there is so much potential and hope there. So yeah. What, what sort of transformations have you seen in people who, who do work with you guys, man?

Uh, you know, Joey, I've seen so many things, uh, as you're asking, I'm trying to think of a specific detail. Maybe one will come as I share this. I I've seen, I've seen incredible things. I've seen miracles. I I've seen people, physically miraculously healed cancer. I've seen, uh, metal pins and plates in people's back and they were able to bend over and touch their toes for the first time in their life.

I've seen lives emotionally, radically changed none of this by my hand, or anyone else's hands all of this by the power of God. Um, this is what, this is what Jesus came to do. This is, this is the real, this is the real Jesus who, who, who came to set us free. You know, he says, uh, he whom the Lord sets free is free.

Indeed. You know, as you come to Christ, old things, pass away, all things are made new. You know, that's my story. You know, I've seen countless thousands of lives, uh, radically transformed at an emotional level. And just through, through God encountering them in very profound ways. You know, one, one little story.

That's just kind of a general one for those who are, who are churched and, and, and maybe not experiencing this, this, this tangible presence, but a guy just recently shared with me that he. Had been, he had gone to, he'd been a Catholic, his whole life gone to masses entire life. He's 60 years old. He had gone first through 12th grade Catholic schools.

And, uh, and he said, after an event, he said, I never know the presence of God like this. I've never felt his presence and the presence of holy spirit like this in my life. And I never really understood what it really meant to be Catholic until today. And I've been, I've been radically transformed. My life has been changed and, and, uh, I'm so excited to continue on, like, this people's lives.

We do events with priests and, and the healing they go through is profound. You know, people that, you know, whether you're in the church or not in the church, you know, from the media and the church is getting rocked with scandals. And, and we see that we've seen that on both sides. And we're seeing tremendous healing and transformation in individual's lives and countless people's lives.

And yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm just trying to think of some specifics, uh, beyond that, but no, that's incredible. To be honest, you, God's amazing. Yeah. God's amazing. Incredible, incredible. This is possible for every one of us, you know, and honestly, I mean, I. I don't mean to talk bad about it, but sometimes religion upsets me, you know, because we've represented this thing on this, this external source, you know, mm-hmm and, and, and it has to come from the depths of the being the heart has to come from the overflow of the life of the presence of God.

It has to be with the very presence. The holy spirit, the church even says to call upon the holy spirit every day. He is, he is the source of life. If you never walk into a church, you know, that's your choice, but just try, just sit there in your room or wherever you are and just say, come holy spirit, come Lord Jesus.

Just give him, give him a shot. Just invite him. . Yeah. And, and he, he is the transformation. He is, there's a, there's a, there's a quote in the church that says this. It says the fire of the holy spirit is the transforming end. The fire is the transforming energy of the holy Spirit's actions. Mm. He comes like a fire that warm, that just warms up the depths of our being and reaches us at the core at the heart.

And it it's the heart. The heart is the place of transformation. The heart is the place of life or death. The heart is the place of battle. The heart is where we've been inflicted with these wounds and the heart is where Jesus wants to come and set us free and bring us life. And the holy spirit will bring his transforming energy and life and passion into your heart.

And I pray that even as I'm saying this, if you're listening that he touches you now and that he brings hope and life and healing to your own heart. Beautiful, incredible. And I totally agree with the kind of the misrepresentation of religion. It's, it's very sad and hollow and it's sad. I love that.

You're changing that and yeah, if people wanna follow you on social, are you on social? How could they do that? You know, I do have some social media, but honestly as a my generation, man. I, I flounder with it, you know, I that's okay. I have Facebook page. I have, uh, uh, Instagram, I have text, but honestly, I don't even know how to manage any of 'em I need a come alongside of me.

There you go. Help me, you know, but they can go on to, uh, let's see. I don't even know what my Facebook page is, but my name bar shoots. They can probably find it. Sure. Um, on Instagram, uh, I guess it's the same Twitter it's uh, at bar shoots. S H O O T S. It's spelled differently. My real spelling is S C H U C H T.

Um, but I don't post a lot. I just try to, you know, I just kind of post stuff with my family. Li honestly, I need a, I need a millennial. Who's gonna come alongside again. take all that stuff and get it out there. Yeah. No, that's fair. No problem at all. We'll make sure to link to all those in the show notes guys.

So you, uh, don't have to remember all that Bart. Thank you so much for being here. I, I just wanna give you the last word. Uh, what encouragement would you give to someone listening right now? A young person listening right now who, who feels stuck, they feel broken. Maybe they hate themselves the way that you hated yourself, what would you say to them?

What encouragement would you give them? Um, especially if they're wrestling with this whole trauma of the breakdown of their parents' marriage and their family. Oh man. I, first of all, I, I feel your pain. I, I it's real to me. I, I understand it. It's, uh, one never give up. Don't. Don't quit, no matter what the temptation is, don't quit.

I remember I used to sit in high school, the end of my uncle's dock. I lived with him, my high school, my senior year, feeling lonely and depressed my world falling apart, all kind of things happening. And I remember sitting at the end of his dock, looking out over the water, looking out to the other side of the river and just going what's on the other side, man.

This is what it looks like right now, but what's on the other side. Little did I know that was preparing me for the journey of, of my life. It's like, there's hope on the other side, there is hope on the other side and, and just keep pressing in. And Jesus is that hope and I'm not trying to push religion, but he is the answer.

Not, not, not in the negatives of religion, but him himself. He is our source of life. He came to bring us abundant life, call on him, ask him, do like I did God. I just need to know if you're real. I mean, I've heard all this stuff. Just show me, just show me, show me, lead me to the right people, show me, but never, ever, ever, ever give up.

And I understand if you struggle loving yourself. I understand that completely. Not until I encountered love himself that I learned to love myself. You know, God is love. And, and I love myself today. I love myself, uh, not in a weird way, but in a healthy way, love yourself. Never give up.

If you want more content from Bart, you can find that at church on fire. Dot live again. That's church on fire.live. Once you're on that website, click online courses, and then you can choose a course and you can buy it. Now, if you're not ready for that, you can click on store on that website. Again, that's church on fire.live, and you'll find some, uh, free previews of the courses that he offers.

If you wanna know more about the John Paul to healing centered, you can just Google JP two healing center, or you can go to JP II healing center.org. You can click on the schedule on that page, and then you can sign up for a live event if you'd like to attend one of their events. One takeaway from this episode for me, is that it's so important to find the right people in your life to talk to about your struggles about your broken family.

Because like Bart said, it can actually be harmful to talk to the wrong people. So the question really is how do you find. The right people to talk to, to open up to, I, I think there's a few principles that you can follow. One is look for someone who has empathy, the ability to really put themselves in your shoes, even if they haven't been exactly through what you've been through, they can put themselves in your shoes.

Next. I say, find someone who won't judge you, someone who will just listen, who will just accept you as you are now. Not saying they're gonna prove of anything bad that you've done in your life, but they'll just accept you. And they'll love you wherever you're at in life. Next. Find someone who is trustworthy, someone, you know, who is gonna keep your story.

Keep your struggle secret. They're not gonna go tell everyone. They know. Another point is find someone whos suffered. I've found typically that people who've suffered and especially learned to deal with it in some healthy way are more trustworthy. People who haven't suffered much in life. They tend not to be able to relate with you, especially when you're sharing something deep and heavy with them.

And so I'd say find someone who, you know, has been through some stuff in life who's suffered next, find someone who's older and wiser than you. Someone who can offer you guidance, not just listen to you, but maybe offer some advice for how to deal with whatever you're dealing with. Another benefit too, is they can help you keep healthy boundaries with them and other people in your life.

Because so often when we bring our problems to someone, there is a temptation, especially for people like us to develop an unhealthy reliance on them. And so they could help you keep those good boundaries, which will help keep the relationship healthy. And then lastly, I'd say it's usually best if you're a man that you go to another man, and if you're a woman, then you go to another woman.

So quick recap, look for someone who has empathy, who won't judge you, who's trustworthy, who's suffered. Who's older and wiser, and who's typically the same sex as you are, but you might be asking, how do I know that they have all these characteristics? The first thing of course is maybe you've seen these characteristics in that person in action with other people, or maybe even with you, if you haven't seen that, maybe you've seen hints of those characteristics, or you've heard other people talking about that person saying, oh, they're really empathetic.

Or they've been through a lot in their life or they give great advice. And then once you've figured out someone who you can open up to, then it's just a matter of improving that relationship. You might have an opportunity to be there for them. Maybe if they're more of your peer, as opposed to a mentor.

But whatever the case, ask them, if you can talk to them, tell them, Hey, I'm going through a lot of stuff in my life right now. And I just need someone to talk to. Is it okay if I open up to you and see what they say, honestly, they might not be able to help you at that point in their life. They might be in a rough spot and they might not have much capacity.

That's okay. Find the next best person. And even if they are available, it might not go perfectly. It might not go how you imagine it to go. But if you do the things that I mentioned, you'll be on the right track and the likelihood that they're gonna be open and helpful. Is gonna be a lot higher now to help along those lines.

We've built an online community here at restored, and it's just a safe place for you to speak openly about the pain and the problems that you face. It'll help you not feel so alone. And you'll be challenged to grow into a better stronger person. And recently we started doing online, uh, digital virtual meetups, where we all get together on a call and just talk about stuff we chat.

And we also discuss, uh, different things. And we talk about the pain and the problems in our lives due to the breakdown of our family and our parents' divorce separation, all those things. So this is a group of people, young people. Like you, who you can be a part of who you can talk to. You can find support from, if you wanna join, just go to restored ministry.com/community.

Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/community. Fill out the form. And then we'll communicate through email to add you to the group. The resources mentioned during the show notes@restorministry.com slash 48. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope this has been helpful. It's been useful for you.

If it has been, I invite you to subscribe and share this podcast with someone, you know, who could really use this content. Always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

The Safe Space We Actually Need

3 minute read.

I remember the first time I came across a ‘safe space’ on a college campus.

While I had read and heard of these before, it felt somewhat surreal to come across one in real life; it took seeing one in person to realize that this is something that is really happening…not just a story the media is making up. At the risk of sounding insensitive, I think the concept of ‘safe spaces’ is a little silly. Not because anxiety or stress isn’t real or trivial, but because of the idea that somehow a room – like the one I found at University of South Carolina – can somehow fix our emotional or psychological distress.

How is that room different from any other? Because no one can challenge you or tease you? Because it is a designated space where you can break down? How is that helpful?

If we think that four walls that protect us from the outside world will solve our problems, we are sadly mistaken.

We shouldn’t need an office at our school to hide from our problems…which are most likely not caused by our peers or teachers anyway.

The fact is though, we are distressed. More and more of us are starting to take medications for anxiety and depression. The fact that a ‘safe space’ is becoming commonplace on college campuses is indicative of how our generation is feeling.

The reality is, we do need a safe space. But it isn’t a room in the music department of a college campus with bad lighting and gray carpet…it’s our home; it’s our family.

Mothers and fathers (or other primary caretakers) play an irreplaceable role in not only teaching us good habits, but also our temperament, our ability to be in relationships with others, our proficiency at interacting with the outside world, and our emotional and psychological health.

This has become more and more clear to me, especially taking a human growth and development class in which these formative relationships are especially emphasized. There is so much evidence which demonstrates that distant relationships between children and their parents are strongly associated with personality disorders (including anxiety), drug and alcohol abuse, and delinquency.

The home is where we are formed…physically, emotionally, psychologically, and intellectually. When we come from a strong, loving, supportive family, we are able to go out into the world confident in our ability to face the challenges that inevitably will come our way. When we don’t have that stability in our lives early on, our skill to interact with the outside world and develop close relationships with others is stunted…we are immature and therefore unable to deal…hence the need for a ‘safe space.’

When we look at the importance of the family and how many of ours are broken today, it really shouldn’t be surprising that levels of anxiety, depression, alcoholism, and drug abuse are increasing more and more. That safe space that a close, loving family provides is essential. Of course, even the healthiest of families has their problems, the difference is the family that remains close despite them, instead of allowing them to separate or distance them.

I think as Americans we take pride in being independent. We started off as a nation of independent thinkers who strove for freedom. However, the idea of the self-made man simply isn’t true…just ask their mother. We were made in, for, and to love; and that is something we can’t teach ourselves. How can we possibly love if no one teaches us how or what that looks like? We don’t expect a five-year-old to teach themselves how to read…the same logic applies to this. We are born dependent on others and that doesn’t really change as we get older. You may know how to feed yourself (thankyouverymuch) but there is probably nothing more detrimental to the human person than loneliness. We need others and that is not a weakness, it is the beauty of being relational creatures.

We all have dreams and goals that we want to achieve, and that is perfectly healthy. However we have to remember that close relationships with others – love, essentially – is really what gives our lives meaning. That starts at home. Family is where we learn to love and be loved…it is the sanctuary of life. What do you think of when you think of sanctuary? Maybe someplace sacred…certainly someplace safe, a refuge. Nothing can replace the safety that family provides and we are seeing the consequences of its loss with the increasing levels of distress, especially in our young adults (who should be the most lively!).

It isn’t silly that we need a safe space, we do. But a college campus can’t provide it, and the sooner we realize this the better off we’ll be.

This article was written by Restored team member, Miranda Henkel. It has been reposted with permission. It originally appeared on her blog, First Class Act.

#047: How Healing Improved My Life, Marriage, and Friendships | Sandra Howlett

When your parents’ marriage breaks apart, it feels like an earthquake. The most basic foundation, your family, is shaken and shattered. It’s disorienting. It’s traumatic. As a result, we tend to go through life doubting anything can last. 

But thankfully, we’re not doomed to skepticism our entire lives. We can heal and feel whole again, like our guest Sandy. In this episode, she shares:

• How she beat chronic depression

• How her choice to forgive her parents led to feeling free instead of stuck

• The sexual mistakes she made and the healing she’s found

Share your story

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Email: sandrahowlett25@icloud.com

  • How Fear of Abandonment Can Affect Your Relationships 

  • Death of Innocence

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TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

When your parents' marriage falls apart, it often feels like an earthquake. The most basic foundation in your family is shaken and shattered. It's disorienting, it's traumatic. And because of that, we tend to go through life questioning what won't fall apart. We doubt that anything can last, that we can rely on anything or anyone.

But while that is a real struggle that we face, we're not doomed to perpetual skepticism our entire lives. We can heal and feel whole again. And we can even learn to trust and find security which we touch on. In this episode, you're also gonna hear us discuss how my guest beat chronic depression, just incredible story, how her choice to forgive her parents actually led to feeling free instead of stuck.

She makes the great point that mentors are an incredible tool to help you heal. And. She shares how healing her brokenness has actually helped her find peace in life, build good friendships and even improve her own marriage. And then she gets real about the sexual mistakes that she's made and the healing that she's found.

This is really raw and real conversation with solid advice. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation. Or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 47 and today my guest is Sandra Hallett. Sandy grew up in Southern California, where she spent her time, camping, surfing, and horseback riding Sharon earned a bachelor's in journalism from California state long beach and has written for black belt and boys' life magazines and various community newspapers.

She's been married for 20 years and now lives in Minnesota with her husband, mark. She has a blended family with two stepsons, one earning his masters in theology and another who is a talented musician and one son in his first year of minor. Seminary Sandy rediscovered her Catholic faith upon moving to Minnesota at nine years ago.

And in the last two years has begun the healing process from her parents' divorce. She's a life giving wounds online retreat leader and works part-time for marriage material, a pro-life organization. Like I mentioned, this conversation is very raw and real. We talk about topics that honestly are not talked about enough.

And so I hope this is helpful for you. I know it will be. So here's my conversation with Sandy,

Sandy. Welcome to the show. Thank you. I've been really looking forward to this, to, to everyone listening, uh, Sandy and I actually got to, to meet up in person recently. We had dinner together. Uh, Sandy, thanks again. I, uh, I hope you enjoyed that pizza that we had, and it was really great to meet you in person.

Yeah. So good to, uh, see the face on the other side of the voice. Finally. you make me sound special? I don't, I don't feel special at all, but, um, no, it, it was great to, to meet you in person. That definitely changes the dynamics of the interview. Cuz a lot of the people I interview, I don't have the pleasure of meeting in person, but if any of you listening, if you're ever in Colorado, uh, hit me up, it would be great to, to see you.

But Sandy's so good to have you. I, I just honored to hear your story to, and I, I know some of it already and just share it with restores audience. So I'd like to start by you just taking us to your C. Like what happened with your parents' marriage, with your family? How old were you? Uh, how did you react to it?

Yeah, so I was four, maybe close to five when my parents, um, separated got divorced and I really hardly remember anything. I mean, my, the only memories I have growing up are mostly after the divorce. I have a couple of strong memories right before it happened. Um, one of 'em was an earthquake and so that's kind of weird.

So it's kind of ingrained in my, in my memory. And, um, in fact it was kind of a metaphor for me for a while of like just the ground shaking and me as I was getting older and dealing with the issues of divorce of just kind of feeling like I'm, you know, on shaky ground and never quite able to find solid the ground for myself and in my life and stuff.

Anyways. So my dad, um, had convinced my mom, so we were living in Southern California and this was the seventies. And, you know, there was a lot of stuff going on in the seventies, but, um, he, um, apparently wasn't happy in his marriage and he talked my mom into, um, going to this swingers party. And, um, I know they were like maybe smoking a little pot and stuff too at the time, cuz we had found pipes in their dresser drawers.

But anyway, um, you know, the, they both came from very conservative Catholic background. So it was just kind of, I don't know how to explain how all this went down, but um, anyway, they end up at this party that my mom says she really didn't wanna go to my dad has a very forceful personality. So I kind of understand how that worked.

And he met my stepmom, who she's still my stepmom 50 years later. And um, you know, their story is apparently their knees touched and sparks flew. And that was that. I do remember vaguely, I think it's a real memory of them. Uh, my parents arguing at one point yelling at each other and then after that nothing.

And so he moved out temporarily to an apartment and then, um, Moved in with my stepmom at her house. So we, I guess the summer after they got separated and, or divorced, my mom, my dad had been trying to encourage my mom to go on trips or vacations by herself. Um, which I probably because of the marriage, but she had, she tells me that this trip was pre-planned before they separated.

So she was gonna go to Europe for the summer. And then after they separated, of course, he probably didn't wanna have anything to do with it, taking care of the kids and letting her, you know, go on this trip. But they were separated and she was very, very angry and very upset. And apparently had the babysitter drive us over to my dad and stepmom's house and just drop us off and say, here, you're taking the kids, you know, mm-hmm oh, wow.

which, um, you know, Obviously it wasn't great that my dad, you know, left the family, but it's also not great with kids who are in turmoil, like early on in a divorce for your mom then to also kind of take off for a summer. So, you know, trauma upon trauma, obviously we kind of made it work, but like I said, you know, we were, we were pretty.

Angry and naughty kids. And we would lock the babysitter out of the house during the day. And I know my sister ran away at least once. And, you know, I mean, we were, we were pretty traumatized when I was, so that was when I was about four or five. And then when I was 12, my mom was getting remarried. And so the courts at that time, so we had had the custody was, you know, at that time it was mostly given to the moms and then weekends with dad.

So every other weekend with my dad, which of course didn't really help our relationship either. I think he had some anger from the divorce, but he also has a very strong personality, you know, despite that. And so, you know, it was really hard and my parents, so, you know, we had what would be considered a good divorce, of course you, and I know there's no such thing mm-hmm , but as far as that, there wasn't any open fighting.

We had a pretty good lifestyle. I mean, it was definitely. We had to watch our pennies at my mom's house. We had a lot less money. So we were really, you know, on a tight budget, but we did a lot of camping for vacations and things like that, which is just, you know, one of the greatest memories of my childhood is just camping with my mom and our friends and stuff.

So in a way, it's, it's a good thing. We didn't have too much money. But then on the, then on the flip side, you know, my dad was doing quite well. He was an entrepreneur. He had his own modem company, started with a group of guys. He ended up, um, I mean like early on, he has like several patents developing stuff he was selling to apple was one of his customers and, you know, stuff like that.

So. So it was kind of a dichotomy because we had, you know, a pretty, you know, tight budget at my mom's and then we would go to my dad's and there was lots of money mm-hmm wow. And, you know, it was really hard for my mom, for instance, like we would come home after Christmas with all these expensive presents for my dad that she couldn't afford to buy us.

And so that was tough, but so they weren't, you know, really talking, even though it wasn't volatile and, um, We would have to make arrangements with our dad directly when we were children for our, every other weekly visits, which was really stressful for us. Cuz again, he was kind of, um, you know, a hard person to deal with.

I always in my, my PC adult life, I call him prickly. He was a little prickly, not, not more fuzzy, you know? Um, and so me and my sisters would fight, you know, like we're small children. We're like, you gotta call dad to make arrangements. I'm not calling him. You call him. I'm not gonna call him. you know, it was just like kind of stressful for us, but yeah, that's kind of how that went and then.

When I was 12, the courts decided, uh, and my mom was getting remarried and moving about an hour away from, you know, we had stayed in the childhood home where my mom and dad had lived, which was great also because it really gave us, you know, more stability than we would've had as children of divorced.

Cause I know a lot of children are divorced, have to go back and forth and Lu their stuff around and you know, all of that. And I understand you wanna, you know, maintain a relationship with dads, et cetera. But actually I feel like it was just a blessing that we didn't have to do that. Mm-hmm . And so, you know, at 12, my mom's getting remarried moving away and the court says, well, you're old enough to decide what parent you wanna live.

Yeah. Well, I think back now, and I'm like really at 12, I'm old enough to decide that. And not only that, but to have all that pressure put on me, like so much pressure. Oh my gosh. My sisters had already decided and with maybe a little urging from my dad that we had lived with my mom, the majority of the time, and maybe it was his turn or maybe it was, you know, let's live with dad.

So I'm like the last one. And they keep asking me, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? I'm like, I don't know. And it, you know, it's kind of a lose, lose situation. Absolutely. You know? Um, so my sisters were already leaving. If I went to live with my dad, my mom would be completely alone. And not to mention, like I said, my dad, wasn't the easiest person to live with.

So I'm like, well, you know, let me go live with my mom, just because it's easier. And because I wanna be there for her and you know, so that's what happened. Wow. There's so much there. It just breaks my heart to think of, you know, the four or five year old, you going through all of this stuff. And then everything that followed through the years, I think your analogy of, you know, the earthquake is so fitting and we've heard this again and again from people how it just feels like the foundation has been taken out underneath you.

And it just feels like kind of the way that we talk about it is if the, the family is the most basic fundamental sort of foundation that we're supposed to be able to rely on. And that falls apart, we tend to go through life feeling like, well, what won't fall apart? Like what can I actually rely on? And so we have so many feelings of insecurity there.

Yeah. And I had, um, a lot of nightmares as a child. I'm assuming it was after the divorce. And I remember going to sleep in my mom's room a lot because I was scared. And I, I still, to this day, remember the scary clown and the, the, in my dreams and the washing machine that I was stuck in. And then at sometimes I would try to sleep with my middle sister and she would kick me out.

And so I specifically remember one time waiting till she was asleep and crawling into her bed. And it's like a little twin bed, you know? And I'm curling my little body at the base of the bed near her feet and sleeping, you know, after she had already fallen asleep. So she couldn't kick me out. it's like so sad.

Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. I can imagine if you were to go back right now and just be with that little girl. I am curious. I, I, yeah. What would you say to, to her if you were to go back right now, I know I'm putting you on the spot, but, um, I'm just curious. Gosh, that's a great question. I mean, it's different. I, I could talk to my 20 year old self easier maybe than the little girl's self, but I know that, um, you know, it's not your fault.

You're loved. I mean, that's, I think the biggest thing with children is that. and not that we consciously think it's our fault, but somehow it gets into our psyche that we were somehow at fault, like parent didn't love me enough or whatever. I wasn't enough to keep them there. Or, you know, so just to, just to let people know that it's not their fault and you were loved and your parents are flawed.

Like when we're children, we just think our parents know everything. We just think that they're so perfect. And they have it all together. And. I can tell you as a parent now, and as an adult, like we don't know anything. we're maybe as we go along, we're just better at pretending yeah. I mean, it's kind of humbling.

And then it also tends to give you. A little more perspective and a little more forgiveness for your parents when you get older and you just realize that everybody's doing the best they can, we're all human, we all fail. And yeah, you just don't realize how kind of flawed your parents are as a child.

mm-hmm yeah. We, we tend to make them into superheroes thinking that, oh my goodness. Especially, you know, dad, we look at him and we say, oh my goodness, he's Superman. He can do nothing wrong. I know I looked at my dad like that. And then when my parents separated, that was part of the reason that it was so hard on me.

I was like, wait a minute. They're not perfect. And, and there's actually, you know, been some real problems going on that I wasn't aware of and all sorts of stuff that just crushed my trust in, in both my parents. Yeah. And, um, you know, I recently went on a retreat for children of divorce, with my stepson and, you know, he got, uh, An earful on probably the first time he's ever heard it, that I had issues with my marriage, to his father, you know, which is my current husband.

And, you know, I'm sure, you know, most people don't talk about marital problems that much. So even your friends and family and, you know, everyone thinks that everything's just perfect. And, um, there's a lot that goes on behind closed doors. yeah, absolutely. I, I wish we would talk about it more in a constructive environment, you know?

Cause I think, yes. I think one of the things that happens often is that, uh, one or both spouses go to their friends and they just gossip and they just complain and there's nothing constructive about it, but I, I really wish we would talk about those problems market. I think it would lead to better solutions.

I, and I definitely wanna get to that, uh, further with you, but yeah, I wanna give you a chance now, if you wanted to add anything there. Oh yeah, no, we can, we can talk about it a little bit later, but I know some of my friends really appreciate the fact like I'm. Pretty outspoken. Um, I've got some of my dad's traits.

I have a lot of, you know, ideas and opinions and things like that. I could talk forever, but that is one of the things that some of my friends appreciate my outspokenness and my, um, willingness to speak about. In a general way about marital problems without complaining about them. Like, yeah, this is hard, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. I, no, I think that's so good. And looking to you as an example, I'm sure is so helpful to, to so many of your friends and anyone who, who mentored look, who looks up to you. I wanna pause for a second. Just say anyone in the Minnesota area that Sandy's been working on, starting a support group.

I mean, at least you did right Sandy for a six week kind of stint. And, uh, that's possibly something that you will be doing in the future too. So at the end, we'll give people info if they wanna contact you, but it just came to mind because you are a go getter. You wanna start things, you wanna help people.

Yes. And I think that would be useful for anyone in your area. Are you in the, uh, Minneapolis area? Yes, I'm in Stillwater, Minnesota. Perfect. Okay. So it's about 30 minutes outside of the cities. Mm-hmm okay. Sounds good. So we'll make sure to, um, connect people with you if they wanna know more. Yeah. Maybe you all could, could help each other and get something going up there.

Definitely. Awesome. Love it. Two, two things you said before that really stuck out to me. One, you said you were kinda living in two worlds and I think that's the reality for so many, uh, children of divorce is that we live in two worlds, but it's so interesting. The financial difference. I've seen that with my parents, even to this day to, to be vulnerable.

Um, my dad was always working in construction and very experienced and good at what he he does. And so he, um, you know, always had the opportunity, usually had the opportunity to make a lot of money. And so when we're with him, it's usually going out to eat. And like you said, Christmas gifts and birthday gifts and things like that.

We're a little bit more extravagant. And then on mom's side, you know, she stayed at home for so many years to raise us, which was just such a sacrifice and a blessing. Like I, I'm just really grateful that she did that. Um, but then she had to go back to work. And so, uh, right now, you know, she's gonna be okay through retirement, but it is a real struggle.

And as we know, divorce just destroys people financially as well, especially if it's drawn out, like my parents' merit, uh, divorce was. And so, um, I can really relate with that. The other thing that you said was being the middle man, um, a number two of six kids as, uh, some people listening will know and, uh, being one of the oldest, I think I especially had to assume that role, especially cuz my parents were just kind of at each other's throats and it's like, okay, we're gonna have to be the mediator.

My, my older brother and I, and even my younger siblings. Different points. And so that, that is just such a struggle and it's such a difficult position to be in for, for kids. And I was curious offhand, uh, if you had any advice for anyone in that situation right now, who is the middle man who maybe feels like they need to be the middle man either to just keep things civil between mom and dad, or maybe protect their siblings.

I know I've assumed that role to protect my siblings so that my dad or my mom wouldn't go to them instead, they'd come to me cuz I felt better able to, to handle it in a lot of situations. But yeah. Any advice for that young person who is dealing with being the middle man? Yeah. That's not your job, you're a kid.

It's not your job. And I understand if you have siblings. So if you say no to being the middle man for your parents, that maybe they'll go to the siblings, but you know, it would be nice. Um, as a group, if you know, all the children would realize and you know, have a pact like. No, that's not our job. I think children of divorce are really forced to grow up, you know, way too early because of all these things.

And, you know, we've already lost so much of our childhood and that's just one more thing. And so for them to just realize that that's not what they're being asked to do is not reasonable. It's not something that should be put on them as children. And to just say no, , you know, like to find those boundaries somehow and, you know, and realize that, you know, don't be afraid of losing the love of your parents, cuz that's the, that's the biggest motivator for everything we do with our parents.

We're trying to please them. And you know, even if your parents get angry at you, they usually don't stop loving you. So, you know, it's just, it's just to realize that hopefully, you know, you can, you can kind of. Somehow set a boundary or find, or find a different solution to you having to feel like you have to be the middle man, and just maybe have a talk with them and just say, I'm not comfortable doing that.

You're the adult. I think you should do it. yeah, no, that's easier said than done. Oh, absolutely. And, and one thing to add there, uh, you might need to remind them frequently. I know I had to do this over the years and, uh, it's, it's sad, but. Yeah. I, I think there's so many raw emotions between our parents. So we, we might need to remind them of the boundary.

It's not like something you set once and it's done forever. That would be nice. I wish it was that way. Yeah, exactly. But, um, but reminding, and I love that idea, Sandy, about kind of teaming up with your siblings instead of just going it alone so that the middle man position goes to another sibling. That that's really good cause that, that is a great alternative.

And so getting them all on the same page, then maybe one or two of you approaching the, your parents and just saying, okay, we all agree on this. If, if, I mean, maybe you all could do it, but if not, uh, just one or two of you maybe could approach them and just explain how it's not good. It's not healthy. And they really need to be talking themselves to each other or through maybe some other mediator, like a family member or a friend, someone who's a counselor, even an attorney, someone who's exactly better equipped to, to handle those things.

So, uh, yeah, I love that. I, uh, also, and what a difficult position you were put in, just wanna touch on that. Cause I think there's a lot of people who feel that pressure of choosing between mom and dad, whether that means living with one or just O in other ways as well. And so, like, I know for, for me, when we go back to Chicago, we typically stay with mom.

And I know naturally because we're staying with mom it's, uh, a little bit more difficult to make time to see dad. And I know he feels kind of hurt by that and it can be difficult. Like we really make, we put forth an effort to have a relationship. You know, I put forth an effort to have a relationship with both of my parents, but it kind of just naturally because of that.

And so I've certainly feel that tension now, but man, I can't imagine as a, just a young woman. Uh, being forced to choose like that. And so a again, I just wanted to get your advice for anyone who's maybe in that situation now. And I, I'm not sure what all the court systems, uh, do at this point in terms of determining living situation.

I hope it's better than, than what you described, but I'm just curious. Yeah. Any advice for someone in that situation now who's listening. I don't really know. I mean, once they've, once they've put you in that situation, I'm sure some people would say, well, I never got a choice and it's nice that you got a choice, but I feel like it was just way too young to have that kind of burden put on me.

But yeah, I've always hated Christmas. It's it's better now, but growing up worst time of the year, having to, you know, bounce back and forth between parents' house. And even now we have to, you know, make sure that we spend the right amount of time, give everybody equal time and. You know, we're driving all over my family lives in the LA area, Southern California.

And as you know, the traffic's pretty bad there and just, that's an understatement. just driving from house to house. And now that I'm married, I have my in-laws, you know, that my husband's side of the family to visit. So now there's three family units to visit and it's just so exhausting, you know? Yeah. Um, and I, I just feel like kids really carry the burden of all that.

I was telling somebody at this retreat, like, you know, wouldn't it be great if we just had our house and all the parents had to come to us and had to coordinate with us rather than, you know, I mean, it's a logistical nightmare. I have to tell you because you know, not just like going to each house, but you know, which one do we start at and when do we, where do we go and how, you know, I mean just, oh my gosh.

yeah. And there's so much tension there too. Like if you go to this family's house first, it's like, well, you're, they're your favorites then? Or you spend maybe a little bit more time here than there. And it's, uh, it is, it can just be a mess, but I agree. It can be exhausting. And, um, yeah, I, I love that idea.

We should maybe try to implement that, just having them come to us. And I know some people listening have done that, which is great. Yeah. How did you see, uh, your parents' divorce affect you in the years that that followed, uh, you already explained some of that, but I'm curious if you would elaborate a little bit more.

Yeah, well, gosh, I feel like I wa I was a train wreck as a kid really, or as a teenager, young adult. I mean, I can't emphasize how off the rails I was. And I'll talk about it later. I guess if we have time, one of the things I didn't realize though, is how much anger I had. Um, so I'm, you know, pretty happy go lucky person.

I. I don't know, had good friends when I was younger and just joked around a lot and just had a lot of fun. But, um, you know, underneath there was just so much anger lurking there, which I found out after I got married of all times. So, um, it, it comes out. It, you can suppress things, but it comes out. But, but when I was younger, um, I was very rebellious.

I drank a lot. Like I, the first time I ditched school, I was in sixth grade and we were drinking at my house. I didn't have a lot of supervision for my mom, cuz she was working full time and she also was a different time when parents really didn't supervise their kids as much. And I really could have used supervision, but anyway.

Sure. Yeah. So I just. Yeah, got into a lot of drinking, um, with my friends and the, you know, the crowds that I hung out with that was normal anyway, for middle school, high school. Um, when my mom moved, she moved to kind of a nicer area, um, near the beach and there was. A lot of rich kids there and they drank and did drugs and, you know, lots of that stuff.

So there was house parties, the parents would leave for the weekends and there'd be these huge house parties or even smaller ones, but sometimes like, you know, hundreds of people, but yeah, so I got into a lot of trouble. I didn't really have a curfew. Yeah. I was drinking and driving. Um, just, yeah, I, I became probably more like towards the end of high school and in my twenties, I became very promiscuous.

Um, just kind of looking for that lost love, you know, love and, and affection attention from, from men. You know, it was kind of like, my heart was so walled up. I couldn't offer anything else. I couldn't make myself vulnerable, but you're so needing. That human connection. And yet when your heart's walled off, you can't make that connection.

And so it was, you know, it was made with my body and that was, that was pretty much all I had to offer and that's, it kept me going. And, um, it just, it really was almost, it was over the top and it almost like at an addictive level where it's like, I just couldn't stop. Like, I, I felt bad. And, um, I told my sister recently, like, yeah, I feel like I just lost my soul because we were talking about her kids or her daughter and like premarital sex.

And I wasn't, I wasn't Catholic when I was younger, I was raised Catholic, but I didn't have faith and I wasn't following the faith and stuff, but I really see, um, a reason now not to have premarital sex. I just. Yeah, it, it just doesn't work like from a practical standpoint. So, you know, a lot of what I found out through, you know, my experience of kind of healing and growing up and realizing all the things that had gone wrong in my life was that my life just wasn't working for me.

And that was one of 'em, you know, you just can't, you just can't jump into a physical relationship without having, um, a commitment or having something else there already, because then you, you feel worse. You feel like, do they really love me or do they only love me for my body? You know? And it just, it just ruins your, it ruined my self-esteem.

I mean, of, of all the things that happened. I know the divorce can be really hard on people's self-esteem their identity, things like that. But I think that more than anything else just kind of really shattered me and it was, you know, to a large part, my own doing. And so. Yeah. You know, I, I, I really couldn't stop even though I hated myself all the time for it.

And then I would just do it again. yeah. I mean, I had, it was like this aura, I kind of, you know, had this need for attention and people like it was felt, it was just like, it was front and center, you know, like I literally look across a crowded noisy bar and lock eyes with some guy and know that, okay, we're going home tonight, you know, together.

And so it was, you know, it was very dangerous, very, uh, in, in addition to other like physical risks and stuff that I took, um, when I was younger, cuz I was a real adrenaline junkie, you know, that was kind of, I've always been very physical, but I mean, obviously that was really risky and I. Thank God that I'm here to talk about it.

I guess. Yeah. Seriously. It's it's so interesting. I want you to keep going, but I wanna comment on something here. Uh, the, the anger and marriage thing. I've seen that in my own life, and I've seen that in, in other marriages that I know as well. Um, it's so interesting. I, yeah, I don't, I don't, I can't say I totally understand it.

I, I guess part of the reason I think, and I'm curious, what you think is just when you open yourself up on a heart level, like you said, not just physically, but really be vulnerable to someone. It brings up a lot of imperfections. It brings up a lot of baggage and brokenness that maybe we didn't have to deal with before marriage or before an intimate relationship.

So it's so interesting that I think that that is a trend like marriage seems to cause so many issues to, to surface for anyone. But I think, especially for people like us, I think there's several things at work. And one of 'em is maybe expectations and just what you thought marriage was gonna be. And it's never what, it's what you think it's gonna be.

And mm-hmm, people don't really talk about that. You know, you go to a wedding and everyone's all happy and stuff. And I wanna just, you know, shake 'em and say, oh, it's not what you think right. Like there there's some really good and beautiful parts to it, but it it's just like life it's there's ups and downs.

Right. And I think a lot of people go into marriage feeling. You know, this person's gonna be my savior or this person's gonna make everything right in my life. And that's, like I said, that's part of the expectations is that, you know, this person is my everything and everything that I I've been, you know, lonely, I've been, you know, insecure.

I've been. Whatever broken, forgotten, whatever through the divorce, and this is gonna make everything all right. And it's not, like you said, it's life, life is life, whether you're married or not married. And then the other thing is that it really shows that other person is a reflection of all your faults, because the way that they react to you and what you're doing, um, and it's just like holding up a mirror to yourself and all these things that either you didn't realize were false, or you don't wanna admit, or you don't wanna look at yourself.

And so it kind of shines the light back on you through that other person. And, you know, oftentimes we don't like what we see mm-hmm so it, it makes it very difficult. But then also just, you know, I had a lot of anger and mistrust of men in general. And so, I mean, certainly I think that probably came out in my marriage and, um, Yeah.

Just having to, to really deal with that, with that anger. I mean, I was at one point, like I would cuss a lot in my head and that's something that I worked on, cuz even though I know it's in my head and nobody could hear it, but at the same time, you and I know that what's in your heart or in your thoughts, it, it comes out, it comes out in your, in your actions.

You, you really. Hide who you are or what's what's inside. So yes, I had to work on that because a large part of my marriage, I would just be cussing in my head sure, sure. No. And I think so many of us who come from broken families, like we didn't see a model of what marriage is supposed to look like. We, we saw actually a poor example.

And so when it's our turn, we just feel lost. We're like, how do I do this? Like, there's no manual with it. And maybe we got some guidance here or there, but overall it's almost foreign to us. Whereas someone who comes from an intact family though, I'm sure there's always struggles within marriage. They at least have this example, this positive example that was ingrained in their bones, so to speak.

And I, I think that's a huge, a huge thing that's missing for us. Absolutely. Um, but I think the trust thing. Is really big too beyond just like having an example of marriage, just not trusting people. You know, I think that really comes into play in marriage, but, um, oh, as far as the example of marriages. So it's interesting because you know, my mom was single for about seven years and then she got remarried.

She dated a lot, so there was a little instability there and then she got married and she's, you know, she's in a happy marriage, but my, um, my dad and my stepmom, they were like I said, soulmates. And so I did again, the dichotomy and the, in the finances, but also in the, in the love, because they're, even though my mom has a good relationship, my dad and my stepmom are what I call the one percenters.

Well, my dad passed a year and a half ago, but the one percenters of marriage were they're actually just, you know, completely head over heels in love. Soulmates, whatever, you know, I did have that example from them. And at the same time, it was kind of hard because my stepmom is the one that my dad left our family for

So should I be happy that they have this wonderful joyous marriage? Or should I not? So, I mean, even that caused even that caused some pain and at the same time, trying to celebrate that love and, and to have that as an example. So it was really a double edged sword there, but we did have, you know, some, some good examples.

Okay. No, that makes sense. And that's so confusing. Like, do you look to them as an example or not? Yeah, I, I totally hear you there. Yeah. What else would you add to how you saw the, the breakdown of their marriage affect. I don't know, the, the trust was probably the biggest thing. Like, and, um, well you have, you know, you've talked about loneliness and whatnot, but being able to make friends, male and female relationships were really not good.

And, and so, yeah, so that made, uh, gave me a lot of loneliness throughout my life. Just not having those really good connections, cuz it's one thing if your family separates, but if you have some good friends and good support groups, so, you know, that was the issue with me is that I didn't have any good mentors.

I didn't have any grandparents because they were all gone by the time I was five and I know grandparents can be a great resource for people. Um, we did have one family friend. I think I mentioned I was a latchkey kid when my, my parents divorced and my mom went back to work and I'm walking home from kindergarten by myself and letting myself in.

But most of the time, um, I stopped at our friend's house. So we had some very, very close family, friends, and their house was on the way back. So I was able to stop there and hang out for a while until my sisters got out of school. That was good. But I remember complaining one time to my sister about, you know, well, do you have a, did you have any mentors growing up?

Because I really, I felt like that would've been a huge benefit to me. She says, yeah, I had this person and I had this person. I had, you know, our stepmom who she's a lot closer to. And so she turned to her as a mentor and she had, um, a guy at the horse barn who was a mentor and I'm like, wow. I feel really, um, you know, like I really missed out cuz I didn't have anyone.

So I, you know, turned to writing a lot. I journal and write and all of that, which was. Which was very helpful. Yeah, there just, there wasn't a lot of structure. And then when I was growing up with my mom and then she got remarried and she married a military man mm. So I go from having pretty much zero structure or discipline or anything, and living in a household with a stepdad.

And of course I was angry and I was, you know, rebellious and all of those things and then kind of hit up against his, his personality. And that was scary for me. I saw a couple of. Small incidents, like where he took my step, uh, brother and, you know, shoved him against the wall. And, you know, for me, I was a very, very sensitive kid.

So any like tiny even hints of kind of violence or aggression are just really frightening to me. and so that just really scared me. So then I was, you know, living in this, this household now with a stepdad who I was afraid of for many years, and we're great now, but yeah, it was kind of a shock to my system.

Absolutely. No that that's a lot to deal with. And you mentioned also to me that you struggle with depression for years and just self-esteem issues and oh yeah. The, you know, the depression was pretty much chronic, lifelong, and. You know, it started to really lift in the last two or three years when I've been getting some healing.

And so, you know, there's a lot of things in your personality when you are, when you have trauma or, you know, childhood wounds that you think is who you are like, oh, I'm just a depressed person. And you don't realize, or I just have anxiety or I just a bad person who has no self discipline and I just party too much.

And you don't realize that some of these behaviors or actions, things that you attribute to your personality are actually part of your wound. Um, so I think that's really critical because, you know, I, um, I actually have some family history of mental illness. And so, especially with that going on, I thought, well, I'm just damaged.

I, I have a mental health issue or, you know, I thought I. I was convinced I, uh, was bipolar at one point because I would get very, very depressed sometimes lasting for, you know, a week or maybe longer. And then when I would come out of it, I would feel so good that it almost seemed like, you know, there were these extremes that I was, you know, maybe bipolar.

And, um, I don't know if that's the thing you can grow out. Per se I'm not a mental health expert, but, but I know that my depression was very bad and it's almost completely gone now. So I think your, your body protects you from things to some degree, you know, I don't, I don't know how that all works, but just that it's not, it's not permanent.

Some of these problems that you have, you know, they're not permanent and there are reasons for them, you didn't cause them, you were a victim to some degree of, of what happened to you in your childhood. And, and there is, there is hope for healing. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm no psychologists or neurobiologists either, but I think one of the things that I've learned that has been helpful to understand is that when you go through trauma, like you said, your brain experiences that trauma as if it's ongoing, unless you heal it, unless you process it, unless you kind of file it away, it, it, your brain's almost experiencing that continually throughout your life, cuz it doesn't have a sense of time.

The emotional part of your brain doesn't have a sense of time like we do in other parts of our brains. And so, um, that's just continuing on. So it makes sense. Again, there's other, there's many factors that go into chronic depression. I don't wanna simplify this too much. It makes sense that if, you know, we went through trauma and we never dealt with it, we never healed that we would continue feeling the way we did maybe when we were younger, when we went through the trauma immediately after the trauma.

So that makes sense to me that you experienced that in your story. And I'm so hopeful for all of the younger generation that has resources like restored and life giving wounds, because, you know, I didn't have that. And the fact that it's the voice of the children, you know, of divorce actually, and being able to share your stories and to be seen and heard.

And, um, I think that's amazing. So one of the problems that, so I just turned 55 and literally have just started to kind of get healing in the last 3, 4, 5 years. So I've lived with this for a very long time. And one of the things is that I always thought, what is, you know, what's wrong with me? Like my sisters, don't talk about it.

As being in the forefront of their life or having problems ongoing, although I can look at the relationships and lives and think, yes, they do, but Hmm. You know, as far as in their minds, they, they don't think they weren't thinking about it as much as I was. And it was, you know, I was always realizing that somehow the divorce was affecting me, although I didn't quite know how.

And so it was a terrible feeling, feeling like, you know, what is wrong with me? Like, I'm the only one that feels this in this world. And I didn't have, you know, your resource or no knew about you before. And, um, it was very lonely and isolating and I was, you know, very hard on myself because it's like, okay, there's something wrong with me.

And then when I became. Re immersed in the Catholic faith, they talk aloud about forgiveness. And so then it, I started working on forgiveness, which was great. It's a wonderful, uh, virtue at the same time, I thought, what is wrong with me that I'm still thinking about this divorce? Is it that I don't have enough forgiveness for my parents?

And I, you know, I'm just a bad person because I can't forgive. And so that also was kind of a double edged sword as. Okay. I wanna forgive, but clearly I had a lot of wounds that hadn't been addressed, like you said, totally. And I relate to the mental illness thing as well. That runs in my family. My dad deals with it.

It's just such a difficult thing. And, uh, you, you know that when you said basically that we believe that our condition is our identity and we confuse that often, and one counselor that came on the show said, uh, those things that you feel, the brokenness that you feel, it's really just how you're doing.

It's not who you are. And it's important to remember, especially to anyone listening right now who maybe you're dealing with anxiety, depression, loneliness, any other range of issues, and you confuse that condition as your identity, but that's not the case. Absolutely. Yeah. And then, you know, the other thing is.

You know, I was very detached a lot. Like I just kind of felt like I was going through the motions in life. You know, I also really didn't care sometimes if I lived or died, I think that's part of the reason why I took a lot of risks and part of it was just because I'm physical. But, um, I would remember sometimes I, I would get mad and I would drive without a seatbelt or I just, I was never suicidal.

I know we talked about that. There's a lot of people, uh, children of divorce who are suicidal and I wasn't that, but at the same time, I took a lot of risks, almost like tempting death, you know, and yeah, and really getting into like a victim mentality. I know that some of it was a little bit maybe self-fulfilling and that you can get into this mentality and then that's all you see is, you know, everything that everybody does to you.

It's, you're the victim and, and that's, you know, that's not healthy, but at the same time, I really was. I think because I maybe didn't have strong boundaries and it's almost like total strangers could see my vulnerability or could see that. And so, you know, not just getting in that mentality, but having actually becoming somewhat of a victim in certain situations.

Right. Yeah. So you thought you were the only common denominator. Wow. So interesting. I, I wanna go back to something you said before you mentioned that that writing was one of the ways that you coped with the pain and even it was even healing for you. What were some other things that were healing for you, uh, following the breakdown in your family?

Well, um, I've always been really big on exercise and, um, outdoor activities and things like that. So I ran cross country for a while. I surfed a lot. I loved, I loved swimming in the ocean because. I love nature. And, and then just also the, the challenge of it and the fun of that. So I got into surfing when I was young.

Yeah. I've, you know, for my mental health exercise has always been huge. And then I was big into horses. My family was, and so I did some, and it also suited my need for speed and all of that. So I did what was called three day eventing, the third. So there's, um, you know, stadium jumping and there's dressage.

And then there's the third element, which is the speed and these huge obstacles. So it was timed and they timed you and ya. So they took points away for a few. You know, hit the op if the horse hit the obstacle or, you know, whatever. And so really suited my, uh, adrenaline needs. That was really fun, but yeah, and I loved to dance.

I was, uh, like, like a bars or clubs or whatever, but I just, I was a total dance aholic. And, um, that was a way for me to blow off steam, things like that. Just being outdoors, being physical, writing journaling, and. I wrote, you know, I've written quite a bit of few poems now, but before I was writing and I didn't know quite what they were, I thought they were songs.

They might be poems. I don't really know. And it took a long time. I, you know, probably in my forties when I took my first poetry class, and that was really amazing because all these little chicken scratches that I had all over everywhere in a million different journals, I was able to kind of make sense of, of an art form to apply them to.

And, and it was really amazing. And I, I learned something too about form poetry, which I thought, because I always wanted my freedom and I was that type of person who, you know, never wanted to have too much structure mm-hmm . And I found out for one thing for mental health structure is just really, really important.

And the people who most need it are the people who fight it the most as far as having structure in their lives. So it's really, really interesting. But as far as the poetry goes, there's something called form poems where they, you know, have specific rhyme schemes or syllables, uh, et cetera to follow. And I thought, well, that sounds too restricting.

But once I started doing it, I really saw the freedom within the boundaries and restrictions, which is also, I guess, kind of a metaphor for my life. You know, mm-hmm, because you can have, you know, when you have a structure to lean on, you can have a lot of freedom in that. And I think that's kind of what the Catholicism that I reengaged with does for me too.

It just, it gives me that kind of a moral structure or a guideline for living that I really was lacking. And as much as I thought, I. I just valued my freedom. I feel more free now having that structure. That's incredible. Yeah. So, you know, going back to the church was really huge for me. Yeah. How, how, in particular, I'm curious, like reengaging that faith, cuz uh, you know, there's a lot of people listening right now and people out in our culture in general who have, you know, real issues with, uh, religion and they just don't want anything to do with God.

And they see it as restricting and you're saying, no, it's actually freeing. I was, I was an atheist. My dad became atheist after the divorce and you know, I was my family. We were raised pro-choice. You know, you say the word God to me and I would cringe, like it's, you know, poison mm-hmm . I mean, that's how, that's how far on the spectrum of that I was, and then I just, I was always searching for something I just needed.

I knew I needed something in my life and wanted something more. And I just, I really didn't know what, and I was, you know, just trying to reach out, like, try on the faith kind of, and, you know, engage a little or talk to people of faith. And it didn't, you know, it's like a jacket that doesn't quite fit, right?

Like for many years I was like trying to, you know, make it fit. Like it was uncomfortable. It wasn't natural. And I just, one of the things, like I said, like before I even started listening to what the church was teaching, I had already learned what was working and what wasn't working in my life and already kind of.

Formed my own opinions about that. And then when I went back to the Catholic church, I realized that they were saying a lot of the things, not like I've discovered this because obviously it's 2000 years old. But, um, but they were saying a lot of things that I had already through trial and error and a lot of error and a lot of hardship had figured out for myself in my life, what works.

Yeah. And, and just the idea of, you know, living a moral life, having, I, I think where the freedom comes in the most is just the freedom that you feel, um, which really maybe at its core is peace. Like a, a, a clean conscience, something you don't, we're not walking around thinking, you know, that you, you have all this guilt on your back though.

You know, all of us have made mistakes and like we've talked about we're all hypocrites in some way. Yeah. I, I think, I think that's where a lot of the, the peace and the freedom comes from. It's just like, there, there is something too, uh, living a good life living life the right way, instead of just doing whatever you want.

There's so much emptiness in that, that, that I've experienced. And I know you have too. Yeah, for me, it was the piece of, of self control where I could, you know, when you don't have self control, you're. not really making your own choices. You're making choices out of either a pain or an addiction or something else.

But when you develop more self control, you're making more free choices and you just, you feel more free. Like you're actually choosing it and you're not just being run by some pre-programmed thing that something you're running away from or running to, or. You know, trying to find a magic pill for your life.

So, no, that's so good that self-mastery leads to freedom. I, I love that you obviously are very dedicated to continuing to heal and to grow, but you've made a lot of progress and it's inspiring to, to look at you and look at your life. And so, uh, yeah, I'm just curious, how is your life different now contrast that if you would, for us start with friends and support.

So, I mean, it used to be a chore trying to make friends. Like, I really didn't even know how to make friends. And when you, when you get out of like a college environment or, you know, some place where it's really easy to meet people, and I sometimes when you're a parent, you can make friends through your kids, but I had a kid who wasn't very social, so it kind of blew that for me.

sure. And so. You know, you don't realize sometimes how hard it is cuz when you're younger, it just seems kind of natural. You know, you're either on a sports team together or you go to school together or whatever and it just happens. And then when you become adults, so, you know, I moved here and it was actually really good for me to make a move as an adult, cuz then I had to work harder at it.

And you know, I'm on the internet Googling how to make friends, how to be a good friend, which sounds really absurd, but it's pretty cool. They had some good advice on there. So, but now that I've done some healing, even in the last two, three years, things just really started to fall into place. So naturally like, like effortless, completely effortless.

I'm just astounded. I had struggled so much and that it's now so effortless. It just kind of blows my mind. So, so that's in, you know, in the area of my marriage, you know, I had a very contentious marriage for probably 17 of the now 20 years. And we had some huge healing in our marriage. I would say miraculous, you know, that happened through my healing.

So the thing is, people always say, well, you can't change someone. You can't change. You know, you can't change the other person and that's true. But the thing you can do is change yourself and. A lot of times in a marriage, you're like, well, I'm not the problem. They're the problem. Why, why am I gonna go to therapy?

You know, the thing is everybody has some sort of childhood wound, not just adult children of divorce. Everybody does, you know, so I went to therapy and worked on myself and then you come back and you're behaving slightly different. You're just, you're healing. You're, you know, you're a different person and people have no.

But to react to that because we react off of each other and what we're giving each other mm-hmm . And I had started learning boundaries without even really having a name for that. It was just, you know, kind of speaking my mind and not, not holding things in and just all sorts of stuff, but, you know, my husband completely changed.

He did like 180 degree turn at one point, like was a completely different person. Wow. I mean, it was shocking to me from my healing. He, he shifted and changed as well. And we, you know, our marriage has improved tremendously. I'm also. More of a forgiving person. I used to hold grudges. Like for years I could hold a grudge.

I was the, I was the queen of grudges and , you know, making myself a victim. So I've lost that victim mentality and grudges and just, yeah, the depression's gone. I just have a lot more joy and beautiful. And I'm sure there's so much more that we could talk about when it comes to, to that. I, I did wanna go back to something you said before, uh, your depression, your, your, uh, seemingly chronic depression yeah.

Was just healed. Like, how did you do that? I, I think a lot of people listening right now are like, whoa, that's incredible. What happened there? Going into that a little bit more, if you would. Well, some of it's through therapy. I, I honestly think a large part of it was in healing of my marriage too, because that was causing me a lot of distress.

So. I'd say that's probably the biggest part of it. And the other thing is in, you know, when we talked about self discipline or self mastery, like trying to discipline my thoughts, for instance, if I would start going to a dark place, I mean, I would literally like, just stop myself and say, no, no, and you know, or whatever Satan be gone, whatever you have to tell yourself.

And I would just, I would stop that spiral of negative thoughts because that's just, it can really take a hold of you so easily. Um, so I, I really leaned on, on the church and the faith a lot for that to. To just kind of, yeah. Control my thoughts. Yeah. Not be a victim and it's not just not, it's not just a matter of like positive thinking.

You know, you really have to find the joy. Like in, in my marriage, there was a lot wrong and I had to learn how to trust all over again, trust my husband. And it wasn't just, I didn't have trust from being a child of divorce, which was there, but I also didn't trust him because he didn't fight fair. He wouldn't stay in the room and talk.

He would walk away from me. There was all sorts of very immature and harmful behavior that was going on. So when we were healing, like when he did his 180 turnaround, you know, he has a thing in business where it's like trust, but verify. And so it was kind of like that. I was like, well, when's the other shoe gonna drop?

When's he gonna change back like the Jacqueline hide to how he was or who he was and like, how can, how can someone change that radically? So it really took at least a year, maybe a little longer, but you know, at least a, a good year before I thought, wow, this is, this is really taking hold. He, this is real.

But in the meantime, like all these thoughts from the past would come up because like I said, I had lived a long, long time in a very bad marriage and I had to fight those thought. All the time and say, no, I'm, you know, I'm moving forward. I can, I can see with my eyes what's happening now. I can let the past go.

You know? And I don't need my mind to go there and remind me how bad it was, you know, mm-hmm cause it's cuz it's a new day and we're, and we're moving forward and I'm, I'm forgiving and I'm verifying that, you know, his actions are, are matching up with what he's saying and what I'm seeing. And. That was really, really difficult to try to kind of build trust where there was none.

Yeah. Not only that, but there, there was harm and there was yeah. All sorts of issues while that's incredible. I wanna go back and touch on relationships that it's appropriate that we're here now because I think something that's. So moving in your story, um, that, that you've explained to me is that, uh, a lot of.

The brokenness in your past was sexual in nature. Like you had a lot of sexual brokenness, but you've also found healing through your own sexuality, which is really beautiful in God's plan for sexuality, which is just amazing. You obviously grew up, you know, with the sexual revolution and there were just so there's so much confusion and so much misunderstanding, you know, on one end of the spectrum, there were people who were just living out their sexuality without any sort of limits or control.

And then on the other end, there were people who were, uh, very repressive and they looked down on sexuality. I thought it was bad and dirty and all this. So neither of those are right for anyone's listening, who like be confused. There is a middle ground and, uh, sex is good and beautiful, but it needs to be in its proper place.

Like you said so well before Sandy. Um, but yeah, if you would touch on that a little bit of how, yeah, just how that's played out in your own life and having made those mistakes and then now, uh, having found healing, especially in your marriage. Yeah. Well obviously, like I said before, you know, the. and then I don't wanna say like out of wedlock sex, but it was really just, you know, a sex where people were using each other and that kind of promiscuous sex was just so damaging.

So when I got married and we were having lots of problems also, and my husband too, I don't know, I think has some issues with feelings of being unloved or, you know, not having enough love. He needs a lot of, a lot of reassurance and a lot of attention. And anyways, so when we were having marital problems, you know, he was saying, well, everything's great.

Everything's great. Except for this, you know, we just need to work on this one point part of our marriage. And like I've said to other people, you know, you can't have. A hundred percent wonderful marriage over here, and then you have a bad sex life. It's like they go hand in hand. So, you know, he just wasn't able to see what I was seeing or understand, you know, kind of how bad our marriage was and that I was reacting to that.

Like, you know, how can I be attracted or be motivated to be with this person physically when they're treating me so badly, you. So the first therapy that we ever went to was a sex therapist. wow. And it was, it felt so forced. I really felt like I was being dragged there because I knew that there was more issues underneath and mm-hmm I thought this was kind of ridiculous, but I went, so that was interesting, but it didn't, it didn't ultimately help.

Okay. Yep. Yeah. Anyway, so, so when we were, when we finally went back to marriage therapy, I'd say, you know, maybe it was two, three years ago, and even that didn't help so much, but I did start to realize that I, I have an opinion about marriage, that, you know, how the sex goes is an indication of how the marriage is going.

You know, and, and I know a lot of people when my sisters and I started talking about this and she started talking to her friends, you know, there's quite a few people in married who have sex once a month. Or less. And it's, it's pretty interesting, but part of it with me is that I didn't understand how important it was.

Like I read this book called for women only, and it talks about the sexual needs of men, not just as a physical outlet, but how it really is part of their identity and their, their self-esteem, their confidence and everything wrapped up to it. And, you know, because I was in the habit of using men and them using me, you know, all I saw was.

Okay. It's just this physical part. Mm-hmm and it seemed kind of selfish. And I, especially cuz women usually don't have as much of a sex drive, so it just seemed kind of selfish on their part. And I had this, you know, idea of who men were and their sexuality, which really I kind of got enlightened by this book anyway.

Um, so yeah, we started, um, the, the funny thing is the therapist was trying to, you know, force us to kind of be more physical and, you know, let's draw, draw, um, days from a, a hat and we're gonna decide, and we're gonna schedule it and we're gonna do all this. And then at the time our relationship was so bad that that didn't really work out so well either mm-hmm but, um, it just, it really seemed like all the things that should have worked, you know, it's like going to therapy and going to a sex therapist and.

You know, let's have dates and let's, you know, pull names of the days of the week out of a hat and do all this. And, and it was just all really, really forced until we healed our relationship on a deeper level. You know, I do know that I, now I'm so much more, um, conscious of his needs sexually. Like I don't, I don't know how to say it.

Like I just, instead of like, oh, I have to do this duty, which sometimes, you know, wives feel it's more like, well, no, this is critical to him and his identity and his wellbeing. And so it's kind of, I've really shifted in my thinking about it. You know, if you love somebody and you're available to them, you know, emotionally and physically in marriage, you should be as well.

So, um, it's. . Yeah, I don't, I don't know what to say about that, but we, we definitely healed and I thought, I thought this is kind of my, my burden, because I had been so reckless with my body and my sexuality as a young person, I thought, you know, in the Catholic faith, a lot of times you talk about how your wound is your, is your path to healing or to salvation, or, you know, Absolut, things like that.

And so, so that's kind of how I looked at it. I'm like, we're really struggling in this area. You know, I don't know if it was caused by my past life or his past life or whatever, cuz he had some sexual sin in his first marriage, but whatever it is, this. Potentially the path forward. And so I kind of had to have a radical change in thought on that whole topic.

And I know people don't talk about that much either in marriage. So it's, it's probably an interesting, interesting topic. I'm glad you're talking about, because I think this needs to be said a lot of this stuff needs to be said. And what I've noticed too, in marriage is that, uh, from the women women's point of view, like what makes her want to have sex is emotional intimacy typically, right?

Yes. And for a man it's like, we just wanna have sex because we just wanna have sex. And that leads to emotional intimacy for us. Like we feel close to our wives because of that. So , someone's gotta start that, like the man has to make the effort to be emotionally intimate and then the, and the wife maybe perhaps needs to be a little bit more, not aggressive, but assertive.

You know, understanding, like you said, that, you know, her husband needs to be loved in this way, cuz so many men that sort of love language, physical touch and, and it's a team sport, right? It's not just one or the other. We both get on it together. Right. But I have noticed that, but what you're saying, so the men still do need, the emotional intimacy is just totally, it's just in a different order.

So, you know, it's definitely there and you know, I know that, you know, our sex life is not strained. You know, I realize how much. Yeah, actual intimacy. He feels from having, you know, that physical connection. And so there's definitely an emotional element to it for men as well. You know, it's a, they, they need to feel loved.

They need to feel attractive. They need to feel valued. I mean, it's just, you know, it's not just all about this physical thing. There's, there's a lot more to it emotionally. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I probably didn't say that as well as I could have. Like, what I was trying to say is like for the wives, emotional intimacy often leads to them wanting, having sex for men having sex alt often leads to them, wanting to be emotionally intimate with, uh, with their wives.

That's what I was trying to say. yes. Yes. So good. Was anything else that you would add on how, uh, the divorce affected. Your relationships, you touched on so many things already, but I just wanted to give you an opportunity to say any final thoughts on how, um, that had affected your relationships and even your marriage.

The one thing that I know is that I was very hopeless. A lot of times growing up I had was very cynical. I, I really didn't see any hope for my life. You know, cuz like we talked about earlier, I felt like this was my personality and all these faults I had and all, all these, you know, addictive behaviors and all the things that I couldn't change about myself for so many years.

And I just, I was really stuck in hopelessness. That's that's huge because it colors your whole life. You know, whether you have hope or don't have hope that you can change or things can be better, you know, because without hope what is there really? I don't know. yeah. Yeah. It was, it was big. I mean, I just, I'm just so grateful that.

I've had some healing that I've found the church that I found. Some things that work for me, cuz again, it was just, you know, it was getting from a practical point. Like my life's not working. I need to do something. I need something. Yeah. I don't know what it is. I definitely need something because this just can't continue the way it is.

It's it just, it wasn't workable. I mean, I know that sounds kind of like a practical way of thinking, but like really in practicality, like my life wasn't working. Absolutely. And, uh, yeah. That's where we live life in the practical , you know, they're like the abstract is important, but I I'm totally with you.

There it's like that. That's what really led me to change was just the emptiness that I felt. I was like, I don't wanna feel this way. I wanna be happy. Yeah. You kind of, kind of hit rock bottom or, you know, you make, you make a change, no matter how hard it is or whatever, you find a way to make a change because you realize that you deserve more and life has more to offer.

You wanna be a part of that, whatever that, whatever that life is, that's waiting for you. Yeah. And that could be so hard to believe when you're in the midst of like depression or just hopelessness and you're struggling and you feel broken. It's hard to believe, like there's even light at the end of the tunnel.

That life can be any different because often, like you said, we just fall into these cycles where maybe we maybe stop the reckless behavior for a little bit, but we kind of know in our bones, it's like, well, I'll be back soon. I'll be back to the drinking to sleeping around, to doing, you know, risky things to feel alive.

And, um, but, but you actually can have sustained change. Life can be better and different. And that's one of the things I love about your story. Sandy is, you know, you, you turn things around so much in your life by God's grace. Of course. I know you would say that, but yes, it, it's just amazing. And so, yeah, I, I'm so grateful for you.

Being here, uh, coming on the show, doing this long interview and just opening your heart to, to me and to everyone who's listening. I know it's gonna help so many people, if people wanna get in touch with you, how do they do that? Yeah, they can email me at Sandra Howlet, 25, icloud.com, a N D H O w L E T T five.

icloud.com. I know I have one blog that's coming out on life, giving wounds website and hopefully more so they'll be able to see some of my writing on there. Awesome. And I know you've written for us too, so we'll make sure to throw that into the show notes. If anyone wants more from, from Sandy. Thank you so much, Sandy.

Again, I just wanna give you the last word. What, what encouragement would you give to, to a young person listening right now who does feel very broken? Who feels stuck in life? Uh, because of the trauma they've been through in their own family. What, what words of encouragement would you give to them? I would just say never, ever, ever, ever give up.

that's all I can say that things can be better. Things will be better. Just figure out what you need to do to help your own healing. It doesn't happen on its own. You have to work hard. You have to work hard at relationships at marriages at healing. Healing's hard, it's vulnerable, you know, it's not, it's not easy.

People like to just. Think that they can forget things and move on, but you know, like, you know, in my story, if there's stuff there, you don't just move on, you have to deal with it and then you can move on. So, you know, take that. Big jump and, and deal with the hard stuff. And then, you know, hopefully it'll become less and less hard and you can have a beautiful life.

One thing that stuck with me that Sandy touched on is that feeling of hopelessness. I think we all face it, especially those of us who come from broken families. I know I've dealt with it personally and it's truly debilitating. And so when we feel that way, when you feel that. Just remember that there is always hope.

There's always hope, especially when things feel impossibly hopeless. Remember that night is darkest just before the Dawn. So hang in there. It can get better. In fact, if you work to heal and grow yourself like Sandy did, you will get better. You won't be able to avoid suffering in your life, but you will be better able to handle them.

If you heal and grow and you'll feel freer, you feel happier and you'll feel whole again. And I remember the words of GK Chesterton, who said hope, means hoping when everything. Seems hopeless. A question for you to think about is what's the simplest most basic thing that you can do where you are right now in life to begin or continue healing and growing.

Just one thing doesn't need to be huge. In fact, it's more important than you just take action, even if it's really small than doing something monumental. Because if we never act our lives, won't get better. We won't get better. So we need to take action. We have to put the work in. So what's the simplest most basic thing that you can do right now, where you are to begin or continue healing and growing.

One simple thing that we recommend is sharing your story. One of the benefits of sharing your story, that it's actually healing on a neuro biological level, it makes your brain healthier. And studies have shown that people who write about emotionally significant events in their. Are less depressed.

They're less anxious, they're healthier, they're happier. And if you share that story, either in writing or through talking to someone with someone else, that's additionally healing for your brain on a neurobiologic level, it makes you more whole, and by sharing your story, also, you give guidance and hope to people who may be going through the same things that you are, or you did in the past.

And so if you wanna share your story in written form, you can do that. Go to restored ministry.com/story. Again, restored ministry, ministry, singular.com/story on there. You'll fill out a form. It'll guide you in telling a concise version of your story. It'll take a little bit of time to do that, and then we'll turn it into an anonymous blog article.

And so we'd love to hear your story. Go ahead and share your story today@restoredministry.com slash story, the resources mentioned are on the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 47. Thank you so much for listening. And this has been useful. Please share this podcast with someone, you know, who could use and always.

You are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

The Voice of Fear

1 minute read.

“Run while you can.
It may hurt now but it will hurt much more later
when they tire of trying and let go of your hand.
They’ll sit back as you wrestle
as you fight to hold on
but their grasp is so light and desire so fickle.
They’ll soon try to free themselves when they no longer want
what they so ardently admired and desperately sought.
You’re shiny and they easily entranced
by things that gleam, by things they don’t understand.
But there are things that are deeper
things that are more than they want
because it’s too much
much more than they thought.
Much more than the glint they first longed to see closer
they claim to crave more but know not what’s in store
because even what shines has darkness inside.
You may try to hide it
they won’t see it at first
and will happily promise things that are really just words.
Don’t hold it against them, they know not what they do
just smile politely and answer ‘me too.’
One thing is certain and that is in time
their once tight grip will become loose.
They want to be free
they don’t know how to stay
and even the most eager affection will fade.
I hate to admit it
the safest, lamentable plan
and that is, dear friend,
to run while you can.”
— Fear

This article was written by Miranda Henkel, a contributing writer for the Restored blog. It has been reposted with permission. It originally appeared on her blog, First Class Act.

#046: Becoming a Great Parent: Learning from Your Parents’ Virtues and Vices | Miranda Henkel

What did you learn about parenting from your parents that you want to repeat with your kids? What do you not want to repeat?

The answers to those questions are extremely valuable in helping you become the best parent you can be. But sadly, most of us don’t dig deep enough. Today, we do by talking about:

• Our experiences as new parents with babies who haven’t been born yet

• Our fears about becoming parents

• Answer: Do we feel more confident about marriage or parenting?

• 6 things kids need from their parents and how to fill those needs

• Reflect on lessons learned from our parents, good and bad, and how we want to parent

Has Restored helped you? Let us know how.

Links & Resources

Full Disclaimer: If you purchase through the links on this page, your purchase will support Restored at no additional cost to you. Thank you!

• To leave feedback, comment below or contact us.

• Why Your Family of Origin Impacts Your Life More Than Anything Else

• Contact Miranda at Miranda@RestoredMinistry.com

• Contact Joey at Joey@RestoredMinistry.com

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To be notified when new episodes go live, subscribe below.

As a bonus, you’ll receive our free ebook, 5 Practical Tips to Cure Loneliness!

TRANSCRIPT

Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

What did you learn about parenting from your parents that you wanna repeat with your kids? What do you not wanna repeat? Those are important questions that sadly we don't really think about often. We don't really talk about much, but the answers. Are extremely valuable. It's something I've been reflecting on lately because in no time, my wife, Bridget, and I will be welcoming our baby girl into the world.

And I'm so excited. Can't wait to meet her. Can't wait to love on her. But as someone who comes from a broken family, becoming a dad, brings out a lot of fears and insecurities. And maybe because I don't wanna make the same mistakes that I saw on my parents make. And I know I'm not alone in feeling that we know that young people from broken families feel the same when it comes to becoming a mom or a dad.

So we wanted to do a podcast episode on this topic from the perspective of two new parents. And so I'm joined by Miranda. One of our team members at restored, who's been on the podcast before you met, recognize her, her husband, Steven, and her are expecting a baby girl as well. It's super exciting, really happy for them.

And so we thought it'd be helpful to share our experience of becoming parents to give you some hope that you can do it too, that you're capable of doing it. And hopefully even give some advice based on the lessons that we've learned. And so what you're gonna hear in this episode, we're gonna share our experiences as new parents, with babies who actually haven't been born yet.

We'll talk about our fears about becoming parents. And we are kind of an interesting question. Do we feel more confident about marriage or about parenting? We discuss the six things that kids need from their parents and how to fill those needs. And then we reflect on lessons that we've learned from our parents, the good and the bad and how we wanna parent our kids in the future.

And if you're not a parent, I want you to know that this episode is still for you. This is not just for parents or for new parents, but really anyone who hopes to be a parent one day, or maybe anyone who's really struggling to believe that they could be a good parent one day because of what they come from.

So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 46 today. I'm joined by one of our awesome team members here at restored Miranda.

Henkel. You might know her by Miranda Rodriguez. That's her maiden name? Miranda was born in Carus, Venezuela. Although she spent most of her childhood in North Carolina when she was 10, her family moved back to Venezuela where her life was changed forever. When her parents divorced a year later, shortly after she and her younger sister moved with her mother back to the United States and settled in Charleston, South Carolina Miranda graduated from Clemson university in 2015, moved back to Charleston where she met her husband and married him in 2020.

They now reside in Florida where her husband is stationed with the us Navy. She now works for ReSTOR to help other children of divorce heal and grow Miranda, enjoys the beach beer, trying to understand poetry and making fun of her husband. Before we dive into this conversation. I just wanna say that we're pretty raw and real in this conversation about our experiences as children and especially the way that our parents treated us and just wanna make it clear.

We don't wanna hurt them. In fact, Miranda. And I agreed that we usually go out of our way to protect our parents even perhaps to a fault. And so just wanna be super clear that we're not having this conversation to demonize our parents or any parents out there, but rather to, to learn from their good qualities, their virtues and their vices, their bad qualities, so that we can become the best parents that we can be.

And so, as you'll hear in the conversation, though, this conversation is pretty honest and vulnerable. We try to keep it very constructive and helpful in talking about this stuff. I hope it's beneficial to you, but please know that we're not here to make our parents look bad or to demonize them in any way.

And if this is helpful, we might continue doing this as our children grow up. As Miranda's little girl grows up and as my little girl grows up, this is a very important conversation. Here it is

Miranda. Good to have you back. Thanks, Joey. It's good to be here. How are you doing? How's your pregnancy going? I, I know, uh, we talk from time to time, but yeah. How are things going? They are going better. The first trimester was really tough but it's gotten second trimester has been a lot easier, which I'm really, really grateful for.

I, I think I was caught off guard with the difficulty of pregnancy. Like you kind of hear about the different symptoms and what different women experience. Um, so it wasn't like a, it shouldn't have been a huge shock, but I think sure when you're going through it. it's just different. And I read this piece that kind of described it as like a moral bootcamp and that really resonated with me because you kind of, you do like start to learn a lot about self sacrifice, like continually putting the needs of someone else above yours.

Yeah. It's not, it's not easy. Um, and it, it definitely is kind of a stripping of things you maybe thought were important or like valued a whole lot for me, things like productivity, you know, making sure I was getting certain amount of stuff done during the day. And like things like, you know, what you weigh and you know, how much you're working out, like all that kind of changes.

And it's really important, you know, for you to. Like to be more cautious, I guess, like in terms of, you know, getting more sleep and eating well and not pushing yourself too hard physically, but letting go of those things has been harder than I, I thought, because I think more of my worth was attached to them than I realized.

Hmm. It's been, yeah, just like a humbling experience. Very, I think kind of purifying of, okay. Like these are things that I kind of thought that made me valuable and made me important and made me feel good about myself and now I don't have them or I have them, you know, to a lesser extent. So now what, and so, yeah, it's definitely been, and I think too, there are certain things in our culture that affect that mindset because, you know, beauty and, and health and all these things are really, really.

Valued. And so when you feel like you're falling short, because you're physically in kind of a different state than most people, it's just, yeah. It's like, wow. Like, you know, where is my place in society now? Hmm. And so it's just been a kind of interesting experience and I am starting to see the value in it.

Um, I'm starting to see like, okay. Like it, it is important to grow in virtue as you're getting ready to become a parent. And just in general, like, that's, that's just a good thing to do to grow as a person mm-hmm . Um, but especially as a mom, like, you know, you, you want to be selfless. And so all of this stuff is kind of preparing you for that, but yeah, it's, it's hard and, um, totally.

So, yeah, so it's overall, I'm doing well, and I'm definitely grateful that some of the really hard stuff from the first trimester has. Has gotten better. So. I'm really thankful for that. Um, but yeah, it's definitely kind of been an interesting, interesting four months. Yeah. So it's not just changes physically.

There's a lot of other, a lot of other things going on, um, inside you, which is good. That that's beautiful. It's so good to be challenged and to be growing like one of my greatest fears in life is just being complacent and comfortable and, you know, I definitely have to fight that frequently because it's just so easy in our world to become complacent and comfortable.

But, um, it's so good when you experience discomfort. I think because it, it often is maybe not always, but it often is the sun that you're growing something good is happening. So I'm glad to hear that. I mean, it's, uh, I'm sure not fun in the moment, but I think you'll look up and sounds like you already are and see.

Okay. I've made some progress. Yeah, no, I definitely think that, like you said, discomfort is kind of needed for growth. So it's just embracing the discomfort. Totally, totally. And I've heard that a lot about the first trimester and that's what Bridget experienced as well. So she was pretty sick during the first trimester.

We had a first pregnancy as you know, and that was actually worse in the first trimester, uh, for her like a lot of nausea and other things going on. And then, um, we had a miscarriage, which people I've said on the show before, and then, um, this pregnancy, so this is our second and things were a little bit better in the first trimester from my point of view, but maybe she was a different story, but it's uh, yeah.

Then second trimester got a lot better and now we're in the third and baby's just getting big and it's just getting more uncomfortable for her, but she feels pretty good, which is. Yeah, that's awesome. I wanna go back to some, you said quickly, which is just, I think so many of us attribute our value to some characteristic of ourselves, right?

Like growing up, I was athletic, like, like my whole family is, and I was never, you know, the greatest athlete didn't go pro in anything. I didn't go D one or anything like that, but I was a good athlete for, for where I was. And after, you know, I played a year of baseball in college and then after. Um, no, you know, sports aside from, you know, just messing around with friends or intermural sports in college.

And, um, it was a big change for me, cuz I was like, okay, I literally, that was such a big part of my identity and then it's gone and you know, I was used to being like the captain on the team and used to being good at sports. And then now I'm not really kind of in that environment at all. So it does challenge you to kind of redefine your identity, um, and challenges you to, uh, realize that maybe those things that I think are so important, aren't actually as important as I thought, right?

Yeah, no, that's totally a hundred percent true. And even the things that everyone else thinks are so important, maybe aren't that important so it's like totally. Yeah, it definitely it's one of those things that I don't think you would come to you, you may like intellectually understand, but until you have to kinda live without it.

You don't really face. You don't really confront that reality. Totally. And I think you, ladies face so much pressure from society to be perfect, to be smart and sexy and successful and all these things. And, uh, I think there is, yeah. When, when you're pregnant, obviously there's so many things that are changing.

Like you said, you're not able to do the things that you normally did, so you don't really fit that mold in the same way that maybe you once did. Um, and, uh, yeah, that can be really challenging, especially like I'm saying to someone who got a lot of their value, like you mentioned from maybe the way that they look or the things they were able to do, uh, physically like sports and all that stuff.

So it is, it is a big change. So I don't envy you. I'm glad, uh, things are going well. Yeah, and I'm definitely feeling better. So I'm really grateful for that. That's great. I wanted to ask, how do you feel about being a mom? Um, I'm definitely daunted. Um, I think just the level of self sacrifice that is clearly necessary, um, is something that is escapes me, you know, just, I don't, I can't, it's hard to fathom that level of just dying self.

And I do. I mean, I, I, it seems like it's something natural. It just because so many moms seem to embody that, um, it does seem like to a degree. Yeah, there it is kind of innate, so I'm like really like, okay, , we'll see, but I am intimidated by, by how much you really have to die to self and learn to. Yeah, put someone else first and I don't think it was, I, I remember so clearly having a conversation before I knew right before I knew I was pregnant with a friend and I was like, I had been reading mother Teresa.

I was like, yeah, like I really just want to give myself to something, you know, the, and I just thought it was so beautiful the way that she just totally gave herself for this ministry, you know, of helping the lepers in Calta and serving them. And I was, you know, I felt that longing and then like a month later or less, I, it started and, um, I didn't realize how attached I was to kind of my single, even though I wasn't single anymore, but you know, just the idea of like being able to do kind of whatever you want whenever you want.

And. yeah, like that independence, that freedom, that status almost of mm-hmm , you know, you're young and you're untethered all that stuff. And I did not realize how attached I was to those things until I started confronting the idea of motherhood. So overall. Wow. Yeah. It's a little like overwhelming, but, but I'm also hopeful, you know, that when the baby comes, there's gonna be more of a, it like just falling into place, you know, it just seems like so many moms.

I talk to just talk about the joy and the, I guess like sense of satisfaction that they get from, from motherhood. So it does seem like there's a lot of goodness there. It's just, I think when you haven't had a kid yet, mm-hmm , uh, even though you're, you know, even though I'm, I'm pregnant, It doesn't sink in the same way yet.

Totally. Yeah. We'll have to have this conversation again after our baby arrives and your baby arrives. Yes . So I'm sure it'll be a different conversation at that point. No, that, that makes so much sense. Like it's kind of the intimidation factor and I think. Coming from, you know, a broken home play, plays a role in this to, I thinking about kind of what I'm, uh, feeling about being a dad, a new dad, I would say I'm excited.

It's kind of surreal at the same time. It's like, wow. Like I have a baby, like that is unreal. Like how did this happen? yeah. And, uh, and yeah, just like you said, kind of overwhelming. Uh, but at the same time I feel ready. And I think part of the reason for that it may be kind of odd, but part of the reason for that is that, uh, in, in a way I've kind of played that parent role for my siblings, um, at different points in life.

And so it's kind of odd, but I do feel a little bit more confident about parenting than I did or do even about marriage . And so again, I, I think that experience I've had in the past, uh, does, does play a role cuz I'm. Number two of six, we have a big family. Mm-hmm so I, you know, at times when dad wasn't around, I just kind of assumed that role of being father in a way to, to my siblings.

So, yeah, kind of interesting. Um, I was telling someone about that lately and I don't know it is. Can you relate to that at all? About being more confident, maybe about parenting than about marriage? I would say. Yeah. Like I, I don't feel the same acute fear that I feel about marriage. Like I think with marriage, it was, it was really scary.

It was really almost painful in a way to think about cuz you think about all the ways it could go wrong and I don't feel that way with parenting. Um, I don't have that same phobia almost if you wanna call it that mm-hmm so I do feel in that regard a little bit more equipped. I do think our experiences were different because like you said, you're, you know, number two of six.

So you had several younger siblings that. You know, you really stepped up and had to kind, I take care of. And so you are more comfortable in that caretaker role. I think something I regret from yeah, like the divorce and, and how it all went down is that I do think I kind of neglected my little sister.

Like I was so caught up in just what I was feeling and how to cope and almost like isolated myself a little bit. And I do think Christina got, you know, she just, I think she got neglected a little bit, at least, you know, maybe not by my parents, but I feel like I could have been a better sister to her if I hadn't been kind of.

Dealing with certain emotional difficulties. So I don't think I'm, I don't think I feel the same level of confidence that you do. Um, because I kind of remember that experience and I wish I had handled it better. I think you were able to kind of assume the responsibility, you know, you weren't, wasn't really meant to be yours, like that should never have happened, but I think now you're more equipped going into parenthood because of that experience that you had.

Hmm. Yeah. No, well, let's hope so. maybe my feeling of confidence is like MIS founded, but I, uh, no, I, I hear what you're saying and that's a tricky spot to be in. Like you said, it's not your role to be Christina's parent, but you know, at the same time, right there, there's a certain gap maybe that needs to be filled and there's yeah, there there's of course your sibling relationship, which is hard.

And it's so tricky, just touching on this idea that we have to step into the parent role. Mm-hmm, , it's such a weird thing because I know for me, uh, there was just a season that I just had to do that in and I tried not to let it dictate my entire life, cuz I could have just never. Moved on with my, I know people like that.

Like I know people who, they just see that their family's really broken. They wanna be there for maybe mom or dad and their siblings. And they just like, don't move forward in life. Not that that's a bad thing. Like maybe in certain cases that's okay. But I've seen it be bad. Like I've seen it be detrimental because they're literally not moving on in life, not doing what they should be doing or what they feel called to be doing, because they feel the sense of obligation to be there.

Mm-hmm and so it's a tricky balance, but I like what I, what I typically tell people, if I'm talking to 'em about this is there might be a season in life where you have to fill that role. You're not supposed to. But if there's just that void and there's no other alternative, then you might just need to now, if there is an alternative, a good alternative, then that should be taken so that you can just be a kid, you can go through life and just grow up.

But if you can't find that alternative and you have to fill that role fully, or in some ways, then I personally think it's kind of a matter of necessity. It's like, okay, I just have to fill this role, even if it's not ideal. Um, but never wanna remain in that position. I'm curious what you think about that.

That's just kind of what I've come to over the years. Um, any thoughts on that? Well, I think it's one it's really like so cool that you had that awareness of like, you know, my siblings need me and I'm kind of it right now. You know, I, it's not supposed to be that way, but like you said, there's this void and I don't think I had that mental.

Awareness. Like, I don't think I'd ever clicked of like, oh yeah. Like my sister needs someone to help her with, with all this stuff. So I think, I think I do think that it's true. And I think that if you can realize that it's SU it is gonna be super helpful for them. And also, and you'll, yeah. I don't know if you'll, this will resonate with you or not, but sometimes when you help someone else, you know, it kind of helps mitigate your own grief in a way.

Mm. Yeah. It's something about, um, switching the focus to some, to another person and having a sense of like, okay, you know, X, Y, Z is falling apart. I can't do anything about that, but I can do this. You know, I can be there for this person. I can comfort or whatever it is. So I do think that in a way, like, again, like you said, it's not ideal, it's not, what's supposed to happen, but it could be beneficial, you know, mutually beneficial for, for your siblings and for yourself, if you're able to, to offer some comfort that way.

Totally. And I totally relate to what you're saying. In fact, that was really helpful for me. And one of my mentors communicated that to me, that, you know, one of the things that you can do to help heal is to take the focus off yourself. And there is a balance there. And I know, I know you would agree with this, that I think some people use that as an excuse, never to deal with their issues and never to heal, never to face their brokenness.

I think I I've certainly done that at times, but, uh, at the same time, I do think there's something very constructive and healthy about looking beyond your own pain. And one of my favorite movies, probably my, my favorite movie is Batman begins, um, a Batman fanatic. I love it. And in that movie, there's this great line.

Uh, Bruce is talking to his childhood friend, Rachel and Bruce had kind of been very bitter after his parents got, uh, shot and died. And he, you know, had been off to college. He went to like Princeton and he came back for the hearing of the guy who killed his parents. And basically he wanted to get revenge and kill the guy who, who shot his parents.

And anyway, without going too Mo too into the story, the, the guy ended up getting shot by someone else. And so Bruce, uh, was kind of relieved and grateful, but at the same time, he was disappointed that he couldn't do it. So the, the, what was going on in the story is that. For years, he was just so wrapped up in his own pain that he just didn't help anyone else.

He, he was just stuck in his own pain and Rachel challenged him and they were driving in the car and she's like brought him through a really bad part of Gotham. And she said, look beyond your own pain, Bruce. Like there there's, there are people who really need you. And that always stuck with me. And so I tried to do that, you know, growing up when I know I was dealing with things, but I knew that, okay, like I need to deal with those things, but at the same time, I can look beyond my own pain and help other people.

Totally. Yeah. No, that's a great example. Yeah. Sorry to go through all of that and begin, but you get the point, but. Yeah, I, uh, was also thinking just once you get to the point of leaving, it can be difficult too. Uh, it can, you can kind of create a void cuz if you're a crutch for your siblings or your mom or your dad, then once you pull away, like, are they gonna fall apart?

Like, what's it gonna look like? And so that was a big concern of mine. And I had to wrestle with, do I move on and just pursue my girlfriend at the time he was on my wife or do I kind of just stay at home and try to help out around here and all that. And so I really was conflicted with that as well. And what I came to was that it's could actually be more helpful to them in the long.

If you move on with your life and, and this isn't maybe true in every situation, like I said, there's seasons where you may be more needed, but I think, uh, one is you're modeling what it looks like to have a healthy life and, and to move on and to like live out your vocation. If you, you know, getting married to, to date and to get married and to build a family, like that's a beautiful thing.

In fact, as we've talked about a lot in the show, one of the most healing things for those of us who come from broken homes is to see healthy marriages and families. It's just so good for us. It starts to rewire that broken model that we have inside of us that says that, you know, love cant last, and this is how it looks typically and all that stuff.

So that's really good. But then also people need to learn how to stand in their own two feet. That's really important. And so I think that's a good lesson now that we're talking about parenting is that, you know, you never want to be the type of parent. Or parent role where someone's so relying on you, that they can't stand in their own two feet.

And so I think that's one of the dangers too, with filling that parent role is that you can become maybe too close to someone in an unhealthy way to where when you do pull away and move on with your life, like you should, uh, they can be left devastated. Yeah, absolutely. Let's go back to, uh, just talking about being a mom, I'm curious, what are some fears that you have about being a mom, especially someone who does come from a broken family?

I think the, the biggest one and it's probably the most obvious is like, how, how am I going to wound my kids? Yeah. It's just something that I, I feel like it comes up so often of like, oh yeah, like my mom or my dad, like, they didn't do this or they did this. And like, it affected me this way and you're like, oh my gosh.

So it's just, I think even really good parents. Do I don't know if it's fair to say, do some sort of damage, but like, you know, don't get it right. Perfect. Perfectly all the time. Mm-hmm . And so, and, and then I think a lot of times in whatever way they fall short, like there is kind of a, a repercussion and that doesn't mean that where you have no hope or that it's, um, impossible to be a good parent without being perfect.

But, um, it is something that looking back on yeah. Like my own childhood and especially the divorce and realizing that, you know, your parents really have a huge impact on just who you are as a person and the, the trajectory of your life. And so it's kind of like, yeah, like how, how am I going to, to hurt my kids?

You know, because I think as much as you try. Not to in one way or another, we're gonna, we're gonna miss the mark. So that's, I mean, you know, a little bit somber, but definitely something I wrestled with. Yeah. And then I think it's something else which this isn't really necessarily from my family. It's just kind of from observing society in general now, but like, I really, you know, want to raise kids who have good values and I've seen even really good, or at least parents that I deem to be, you know, really good people and, um, to be good parents I've seen even their kids, I guess, I don't know if lose the way is the right word way to put it, but just kind of not have a sound moral compass mm-hmm and it's like, wow, like, gosh, like these, these people who, who seem to be, you know, just good people and doing the best they can, like even.

You know, their kids somehow I think get a little lost sometimes. And so I think that's another fear I have is, is raising kids who, who don't have good values. And then I think it was Chris. I think it was him who said, you know, I thought I was a perfect parent until I had a kids. , you know, I think it's like my husband and I have a lot of conversations about like, oh yeah, like some people do this and we don't wanna do that.

Or, you know, X, Y, Z. And it it's really easy from where I'm standing right now to say, yeah, this, you know, as a parent, you should never do this. Or I can't believe people do this then I think once you have kids, like a lot of that goes out the window. I think it's just a lot hard. It's just not that black and white as you, as it seems, um, beforehand.

And I think, uh, cryonic was relating it to Rath specifically, like, I didn't know what Rath was until I had case. And I was like, oh my gosh, you know, like, it's hard to imagine, you know, like really losing your temper or something with, let's say a four year old or something mm-hmm . But I do think that it's something that, yeah, like it's, it's really challenging.

And I do think that I'm gonna be pushed in that regard. And so it's like, gosh, I hope I, you know, can I, can I handle this? Well, like, do I have what it takes to not lose it? So I think those are kind of the things that I have been kind. Percolating the past few months. Okay. No, that makes sense. And I would agree that in, you know, our parents I'm sure.

And I even know this, uh, there were just things in their lives when they were growing up, that their parents did to hurt them. And you know, it's not to demonize our grandparents or anything like that, but it's just, it's true. Like we just hurt people, especially those that we love the most. And it's so unfortunate, but it's just the broken world that we live in.

And we're gonna get to this in a little bit, but. It's really hopeful to know that it's okay. If you're not perfect, it's okay. If you hurt your child, it's okay. If you, um, fail at times, but what matters is of course making up and, uh, reestablishing that relationship and making things right. And we'll get to that in a little bit, but I couldn't agree more though, the relationship that you have with your parents growing up is the most important relationship in your life.

At least the most formative relationship in your life. And so it really is important to reflect on it and to think back like, okay, what was this like? And again, we're gonna get to that in a second, based on the podcast episode that we're gonna chat about with Adam Young, from the place we found ourselves, there's a lot of good things in there to, to talk about it, but you're so right.

About being a critic. Like it is so easy from the outside looking in to be critical. It's so easy. For example, , you know, where you just use example of podcasting, it's so easy to listen to a podcast and be like, ah, that was so annoying. Like the way that that guy talked or, you know, whatever the music and, uh, and yeah, there might be valid concern for those things, but it's like, okay, do you have a podcast?

Like, are you a pro in this area? Like, it's so easy to be a critical once you get in the midst of it, it's not as easy as it seems. And so I think that's true with parenting too. Like you said, once we're in the midst of it, um, it's gonna be different. So we'll see, we'll have this conversation again. in a little bit, and that's true though.

Yeah. Yeah. It would be, it would be great to kind of take people along this journey with us. Uh, some fears on, on my end, kinda as a dad. Same as you, like, I'm afraid how my brokenness will affect them. I'm afraid of how, you know, my imperfections devices that I struggle with are going to impact them. And yeah, man, it is so humbling and it definitely motivating to wanna work on yourself even more also.

Yeah. Yeah. Just in marriage too. It's like your kids are just absorbing on an unconscious level, everything you and your spouse do and say, and everything it's like overwhelming because literally without saying a word, you're teaching them how to love, and that is intimidating because you might not be very good at it.

And I know I'm not at times. And so like, man, I'm, I'm afraid how that is gonna affect them, uh, just as people, but also, you know, in the future, in their own relationship. So that, yeah, that is, uh, kind of scary. Do, do you relate on that front? Yeah. I mean, I, I, while you were saying that, I was like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

And I think my husband and I do think he is really good at being ch you know, charitable, um, in his actions. Like that's, I don't know. It's just very evident to me. And I'm like, I was thinking, he was like, yeah, like he must have learned that from his parents. I think it is a little daunting that they they're just little sponges.

Exactly. And they just take in so much. And I was with, um, my nephew this past weekend and, you know, seeing him chase after the tools that his dad and his granddad were using and then try to use them. , you know, you just see how much that they're taking in and, and yeah. It's like, you don't wanna mess this up.

It's not just about how you talk to them or what you say to them, or even how you treat them. It's so much about how. You are around them and how you treat your spouse and how you treat people around them that you don't like, you know? And so all those things it's like, yeah, it is a little daunting. It's.

Being put on stage, but the stakes are so much higher, you know? Totally. Yeah. It's game time. It's it's tough. And yeah, I, I think I, I wanted to say Miranda, you're gonna make a great mom and I know Steven's gonna make a great dad. And I think it's so important for those of us who come from broken homes, just to hear that and just receive that, cuz we are capable, you are capable of being a great parent.

And so I'm excited to see you grow in that role. I'm sure there'll be bumps along the way and that's be expected. But yeah, I think, and everyone listening, you're capable of, of being a great parent, you might have to work at it. You might fail a lot. You might need to, um, really grow in some areas of your life to get to that spot where you can be a, a good parent, but you are capable of it.

Yeah. Cuz I think a lot of times we probably believe and feel that, oh, I'm just so broken that I'm not capable of it. I never will be, but, but that's just a lie. Right. Yeah, you have to be hopeful. Absolutely. Another fear of mine. I guess it's more of a concern maybe than a fears, just how my kids will, um, just be impacted by my parents' divorce, how they're quote unquote, like grandchildren of divorce.

And, uh, one of my close friends, he was telling me about this recently, like his parents are together and, uh, you know, have a pretty good marriage and, uh, but his grandparents are divorced and he was just explaining how that's impacted, uh, him and, and especially his parents over the years. So I just, it's difficult to think that, you know, it'll be kind of confusing to her.

To to see like, oh, Hey, why are, you know, grandma and grandpa not together? Like, why don't they live in the same house? Yeah. It's just kind of breaks my heart to think this is this little girl who just will be asking these really legitimate questions. And there's really not a great answer for it. Yeah. I honestly hadn't really thought of that, but it's so true.

Yeah. So, and then some other things kind of that go along with that is just the drama and tension. I know different families are, are different. Some parents, uh, divorced parents get along pretty well, but I know there's always drama and tension at life events like birthdays and holidays. And like we had a baby shower recently.

I made the difficult decision to, uh, have two separate ones, one for mom, one for dad's side. And I, I kinda was going both ways cause my parents are getting along better now, which is good. But, um, I just felt like based on the past between our families, at my mom's side, my dad's side, it was gonna be more comfortable for the guests who were there and, and that just caused tension and it, it was difficult.

And my dad obviously had to plan a baby shower, which , you know, you know, it's not something a guy has to do every day. So that was just, just seeing that it was kind of a reminder, like, yep, there's gonna be more of this in the future, which is, uh, concerning. And then of course, you know, balancing everything out.

Spending time, you know, with each parent, cuz I think it just, you're your time. It's like, not that our parents don't love us and wanna see us, but once there's a grandchild, what I've seen with my friends who have grandkid or have kids and their parents like wanna see them, it's like, oh my gosh, there's no one.

They wanna see more than the grandchildren. so it's like then, you know, splitting that time between parents can be really difficult and there might be some hard feelings there if you maybe spend more time with mom than with dad and yeah, lots of challenges ahead. I'm hopeful that we'll be able to figure them out kind of as we go through those stages, but it's certainly not gonna be easy.

Absolutely. You mentioned before that, you know, even the best parents hurt their kids. And I think we all can agree that nobody's parents are perfect, but I think there is, um, something that we can learn from the good and the bad that we've been through some important lessons. And so I, I think we need to talk about this stuff.

It could be kind of uncomfortable, but I think it's, uh, if it's done out of a motivation to learn and to be better in the future, as opposed to just like bashing our parents, which you and I are not interested in doing then, uh, I think it's really good and helpful. So I wanna have that conversation right now.

Uh, MERTA, what did you learn about parenting from your parents that was good, that, that you would wanna repeat with your children? I do think they got a lot of things, right. And one of them was this idea of like the world doesn't revolve around you, you know, like you're not. , you're not the center of the universe.

Like you, um, are part of bigger reality and in a sense, like, it sounds harsh, but I think it's good for you to recognize that there's more going on than just what you're going through, what you're experiencing and people aren't always gonna play by your roles. You know, sometimes you have to kind of accommodate, you know, an objective morality or a truth that, that exists kind of apart from you or outside of just what you think or what you feel.

I think that was a good lesson for us, cuz I think we all learned pretty quickly, like, you know, to adapt to whatever situation we were in and to like work for whatever it is we wanted to, and like in line with that, another thing that they, you know, either directly or indirectly taught us was, you know, entitlement.

Can they get you anywhere? Like you, you're not owed certain things like good grades or success in work, or, you know, just whatever goals that you want to achieve. Like there are things that you need to work for. And it kind of, I think it was really healthy thing for us to learn at a young age because it made it less disappointing.

you know? Yeah. When you didn't get exactly what you wanted. Um, and it also kind of put in the idea of like, okay, maybe it didn't work out this time or, yeah, I didn't pan out the way I wanted to, but like, I can strive for a goal and I can still learn from my mistakes and, and keep persevering. So it wasn't like the end of the world.

If something didn't work out the way you wanted it to the first time. Because you're not owed it, you know, it's something that you, you can work for and grow through that experience, even failure, you know, that's something they can learn and grow from something else that was kind of, it seems trivial, but I think it was really good for us was like, we, we, we had to clean up after ourselves from a pretty young age.

Like I remember mom saying, you know, if you don't put this toy away, like I'm throw, I'm throwing it away. Ouch. . Yeah. And so, you know, as like a six year old, you're like, that's brutal, but I think it really like all three of us are like pretty, I, I do think like cleanliness an organization is really important.

Like I think it's important to just having a healthy life is just things being more or less ordered. Mm-hmm I think it helps you have clarity and peace. and I think that the three of us kind of, I mean, my brother to a lesser degree, but I think the three of us, you know, understand that like people aren't waiting around to serve us.

Like you, you know, you have to do your part and especially take responsibility for your actions and also just practically, you know, take care of the space that you're in, you know, because it matters. Totally. No, that's so good. Those are beautiful lessons. And, uh, you're you're number two of three. Is that right?

Yes. Yeah. Second child is the best just in case anyone was wondering, so nice work there, Miranda job. Um, and then you have one step-sister as. Correct. Okay. No, no. I just wanted to make sure everyone kind of knew. Yeah. Okay. Such good lessons. And I, I just love that. I think when we're born into this world, we kind of think that we're the center of the universe and in real ways we are at least for our parents, but eventually yeah, you're right.

We gotta kind of shake that and yeah, love what you were saying about entitlement and just learning like that personal responsibility. I think that's so good. And my along the lines for me was. Hard work. I, I learned that from my dad, for sure. He's the still the most hardworking man that I know he worked so hard and he was in construction all of his life.

And he is very good at what he did, he, what he does. And so learned a lot about having a good work ethic and like getting after it. Like you have to put the work in, you're not, you know, along with what you said, you're not just gonna be handed things in life. You have to go and work at it and you're probably gonna fail.

You're probably gonna get knocked down from time to time, but you just have to keep going. And so that was a great lesson from him. And then also, you know, my, my dad, he, yeah, he has his own demons, his own issues. But one of the things that I saw a lot, at least with like other people, uh, he's just so selfless.

Like he was always ready to go above and beyond for, for other people, which, which I always admired. And that again, kind of taught us, like you said, to take. Eyes off yourself and look out to, to other people. Well, my mom from my mom, I think I learned, um, how to be more of a critical thinker. This might sound kind of interesting, but she, uh, was kind of ahead of her time in a lot of ways.

She's not like a, a hippie by any means, but, um, but she was more of like a natural person in a time where that was just not very popular. Like now it's much more popular, but, um, in her time, like conventional medicine, not that she's not against it she's actually a nurse, but, but she was just a critical thinker about some basic assumptions that were made in like medicine such as breastfeeding.

Like it was not popular at all. At that time to breastfeed your child, it was popular to give them a bottle, to give them formula, to give them like cow smoke or goat smoke or something. And she figured out through, you know, talking 'em with other people that actually. This is best for the child to, to, to breastfeed.

And so I really admire her for that. And so she kind of taught me to, um, yeah, just like question things, like think critically, don't just go with the flow. Sometimes you're gonna have to go against the tide and it won't be easy, but it will be worth it. And so I, I really appreciate that as well. And she did, she prioritized us kids.

Uh, so well, she really, uh, we were the most important thing in her life and, you know, for better or for worse, she really, really put us at the top of her priority list and worked hard to, uh, make sure that we, you know, were loved and have what we need. And so I really appreciate that. And a along with that too, I learned her from her, the ability to just sacrifice, like she's been through a lot just with the whole breakdown of the family.

Uh, both my parents have, but especially her and I have seen her just. Be selfless lately you touched on before. So those are definitely a few things that I, I wanna repeat in my own parenting. That's awesome. That's so beautiful. And I, it reminds me of my grandmother. I, I told you she passed away last summer, but she was kind of that way too, where she didn't want to get an epidural.

And that was like, unheard of like that all the doctors were like, you have to, you know, and now people are, you know, a lot, it's a lot more, there's a lot more variety. People kind of see the good in, in getting the epidural, but also like the downside, but things like that, like, she was just kind of ahead of her time.

Like again, with the health concerns, you know, she kind of was like, always ahead of the curve a little bit with that. So it's kind of cool. That your mom was like that too, or is like that too. Yeah. Okay. No, that's so interesting. And I think there, there is a lot of wisdom that can be, I think, just passed down from generation to generation and, um, it, it is great to see like medicine kind of catching up with some of that stuff.

And then also, like you said, it's, I think we've gone to a point where where're aware of different risks and alternatives, and it's not always such like a clear cut decision. It's something that you need to weigh out and make a decision on. So I don't want anyone listening to us to think like you and I are totally against like medical intervention or anything.

No. Like medicine exists for a reason. It's like such a good thing, but just mentioning those few things. I think it's important to, to have a critical mind and not just go with the flow and go with whatever's popular because as we've seen, I mean, if you've studied history, you, you know that, uh, often what was popular was very, very bad.

Like not good. For, for anyone and ended up bringing about a ton of ruin and disaster. Whether you look at ancient Rome or I don't know, different civilizations throughout, you know, the history of the world, you can see how you really needed to be countercultural. And that's not easy at times on the flip side, what would you say that you don't wanna repeat?

So some of the bad things that you observed about parenting that, uh, that you definitely don't wanna do in your own parenting dismissiveness, I think was a big one. Like I just remember, and to be fair, I'm a pretty sensitive person and was probably, you know, I, I do like have a tendency of overreacting sometimes or being dramatic and I'm sure as a kid that was even more the case.

But I do remember a lot of times when I, you know, turned to one of my parents cuz I was heard or upset or. Angry, you know, there was a lot of either like you need to just deal with it or just a lack of empathy, I guess. And I think it's not, it wasn't malicious, obviously. I think it's just that they're different people and that it was just not understanding where I was coming from.

And I've found, I have seen myself fall into this, um, as an adult being impatient with other people when they're suffering, because I'm like, no, that's not a big deal. Or like you're X, Y, Z, instead of being receptive and empathizing with the other person. Cause regardless of whether, you know, it's merited or not what the person is asking for, like there's a bid there, which is for attention, for empathy, for love.

And I don't think denying them of that, you know, is ever the right, the right thing to do. And that doesn't mean. Not saying something that's not true or like coddling, but I do think there is a moment of, you know, you have to be there for them emotionally. And I think that that was something that my parents kind of had a hard time with just because of personality differences.

Totally. And then the other thing is, you know, our faith, we did go to church and, you know, I think my mom was pretty active, but I wish I had seen my dad take more of an active role in our prayer life and to kind of pray with us as a family. I think would've been really good. And, um, would've kind of instilled those values earlier on, in a deeper way.

So that's something that I wish I had seen my parents do was like pray together or, you know, just because my, my faith is a big part of my life and I, I wish it had. I had seen that modeled earlier on mm-hmm so that's kind of something that I'm hoping my kids will, will have the opportunity to see. Yeah, no, that's really insightful.

And I think it's helpful to, you know, identify those things and just be conscious of it and make a plan to do the opposite. And a lot of the things you said resonate with me, like my dad, especially was pretty emotionally distant and, uh, I think a big part of the reason for that was because he was just dealing with a lot of his own hurt and brokenness in life, not to make an excuse for it, but just to kind of understand it a little bit more.

And so I, I certainly can relate with that. I think, I dunno if this is helpful for people, but I think our parents' generation, uh, typically I think most, most of our parents' generation, maybe people listening, um, don't have like the parents in that same generation, but it's good to know that a lot of them were raised by like the world war II.

Generation like some of them, you know, great depression generation and man, they, those people just had to be very tough. It was very, very hard times. And so I think they, in a way maybe were better at the hard virtues and were maybe better at the soft virtues, like empathy, like you mentioned. And so, uh, I think it's good to keep that in mind.

Um, you know, obviously we wanna have both the, the hard virtues and the soft virtues and, uh, and by hard virtues, I mean, things like courage and prudence, like making good judgements and things like that. I, yeah, there's definitely it wasn't perfect, but they kind of just had that. Toughness because of what they've been through.

Like my grandfather, he fought in world war II for Italy under mu. And so, you know, he fought alongside the Nazis at one point and then the Nazis turned on the Italians and they took him all prisoners. And so like, I can't imagine being through that experience. And so, yeah. Was he a little bit rougher, rough around the edges?

He was, but he was like a very loving man at the same time, but it just makes sense, given what he's been through that he's maybe a little bit callous and again, not such a bad thing, but I think there is a balance there. And I, I think that's where we're seeing a lot more. Now we have a better understanding of parenting and people understand like the value of empathy.

I know Bernie brown talks about it all the time. And so I think it is really valuable, but some other things just from that I observed from my parents too, is my, my dad saw his role as basically just the provider. It's like, if I put food on the table, if I make money, keep the roof over the head. Like, that's my job.

I'm done check. And, you know, there's so much more to parenting than that, but that was one thing that I don't wanna repeat at all. You know, I wanna be present in my kids' lives and make sure that I'm just connecting with them on a, on a deep level. Another thing too, that I saw from my dad is that there was so much brokenness that, uh, he had still to deal with that it was such a distraction for him.

And so, uh, yeah, I wanna, that's partly why I've been, you know, so motivated to just work on myself and heal and yeah. Just continue to grow because I think, uh, that's just so important that has such a good foundation to being able to love and to look beyond your own pain. And, uh, like, like you said, I, I really wish that my dad would've been, uh, more involved in like our faith life and talking about important things.

Like we, even to this day, like I love my dad to death, but. Even to this day, like a lot of our conversations, aren't very deep. It's just, they're more surface level. They talk like he is good at what he does at work. So a lot of our conversations are about work and he finds, you know, a lot of value in that.

Um, as a, you know, provider or at least someone who's being productive. And so I definitely wanna make sure that I'm having those deep conversations. I think it's really important. And then just a couple other things from my dad, I saw, you know, his anger. I think men deal with this a lot, but women do too.

Just anger get the best of us. And, um, that's something that I'm, you know, of course working on myself is just, it's okay to feel anger. It's good to feel anger, but it's important that we keep it in check. And, um, another thing too, just saw how my parents, um, especially my dad. Kind of looked up to people who had a lot of things, uh, not that it's wrong to have money and to, you know, be successful at such a good thing in a lot of ways, but it just depends on how you use it.

And, um, he, I know kind of admired people like that. So basically he had this materialistic worldview where he thought, you know, the more things you have, the more money you have, the better that life will be the happier that you'll be. And I think our generation sees that that's just a really empty promise that doesn't work.

And so that's something I wanna make sure that, um, you know, I don't pass on my kids either. So lots there. Um, on my mom's side, I would say I'm just my example from her. We've had this debate recently, but, uh, I've literally talked to my mom about this, uh, where, you know, what do you put first, your kids or your spouse.

And she put her kids first. And I have no doubt that that played a role in the breakdown of the marriage. You know, I'm not plays in blame in her, but I'm just saying that that certainly had some sort of a role in it. And, uh, she still believes that that was the right call. And obviously there's a balance there.

You can't like completely neglect your kids to put your marriage first, but I know you and I both believe that, you know, the marriage first and, and that's actually really good for the kids. If you. Keep that as the priority, I've also seen her just tendency to control. And I, I think that comes from a place of being hurt, you know, going through a lot and even in her own life.

And I remember growing up, Brenda, I, yeah, she would like ask us to do certain things and, and I've had these conversations with her. So I'm not like gossiping about her. You know, she would tell us to do certain things and then maybe like spell out in, in like very detailed instructions, like how to do every piece of it, or, you know, even like take over once we started doing something and it just basically underneath, it was just this desire for control and I hated it.

I hated it. And, uh, I think we all struggle with control, especially those of us who've been through something traumatic. It was something where I remember joking with her once she was like, uh, I had recently started driving and I, I had been driving, I think for like a year or two, so that wasn't like super recent.

And, um, she was like asking me to, uh, go get gas at this particular gas station. And she was like, going through all this detail, like how to get there and all sorts of things. I'm like, mom, do you wanna just come like pump the gas for me as well? and so I, you know, I, we we've, we've tried over the years, like be like, mom, like you, you raised good kids.

Like we're capable of doing things, but I think that was always a struggle for her. Just that control. Yeah. And then just other things too, probably could keep going. Just the, uh, slow decision making. And I don't know if this is something that is a trend in people come from broken families, but I know, uh, my family is not very good at making quick decisions.

it like takes a long time and that's something I've tried to like work against like analysis paralysis, where I I've seen my mom not wanna make decisions because she's afraid of making the wrong choice, the wrong call. And that just, that, that impacts you as a kid that impacts you, uh, through life, especially if that's like what you're taught to like very, very carefully weigh every little decision, um, even when they don't really deserve that much time and attention.

So that, that was certainly something that, that I don't wanna repeat then lastly, I would say, uh, just how, you know, I observed things in my parents' marriage, uh, not exactly a parenting item, but it certainly affected us kids how they handled conflict. How, you know, they would argue, and it wasn't always like this, but a lot of times, uh, the majority of times there was an argument, it would get heated, it would get loud.

And then one, or both parents would just like go their separate ways and we never saw any sort of resolution. And so one of the things I learned from one of my mentors, who's a teacher at my college at FCAN university. Um, he was just explaining the importance of, if you have conflict in front of your kids, make sure you, you resolve it in front of your kids.

It's really, really, really, really, really important to do that. And we just didn't see that growing up. So say all that again, not to demonize my parents, but to say, okay, these were the shortcomings. These are things that I saw that I didn't like. And I wanna do them differently in, in my own parent. I wanna switch gears and talk about that, uh, episode that we mentioned.

So Adam Young has, uh, is a counselor out here in Colorado. He has the podcast called, uh, the place we find ourselves. Awesome, awesome podcast. I love it. I recommend it. And in episode two of that podcast, he, uh, teaches the six core needs. Relational needs that kids, uh, need their parents to fill. And the episode is titled why you are family of origin impacts your life more than anything else, profound and, and so true.

And so I, I wanna dive into that. We're just gonna talk about some of the things he talks about in the episode and, and just give some, uh, yeah. Commentary insight into what we experienced growing up and what we wanna do moving forward, uh, with our own kids. And when, when we talk about this episode, it's good to keep in mind that this stuff applies not just to like little infants and babies and like young children, but as you grow up, you know, as a child, as a teenager, even into your, you know, young adult years, like this stuff applies as well.

So you can kind of think of that as we kind of go through these things. But one of the things he starts in this in episode two of his podcast, he says that we all kind of have a hard time. Even if you come from a good family, we all have a hard time taking an honest look at how our parents treated us.

And he says that that's kind of instructive that that's, um, an interesting thing to, to keep in mind. And what he says though, is. A child needs their parents to get it right about 50% of the time, which I think, again, it's very consulting. It's good that you don't need to be perfect, but, but that's really the sign of like a good enough parent.

And so he lays out in this episode that the six needs that, uh, children have that, that they need their parents to fill. And the first thing he talks about is attunement, attunement. It's kind of this odd word. And, uh, what it basically means is your parent's ability to, um, read your emotional state. Okay.

Your ability to, to read your emotional state, like what's going on inside of you inside your heart, inside your mind, inside your body, your thoughts, your feelings. It doesn't mean you're a mind reader, but, um, just having an awareness and, uh, the core of attunement he says is not reading right? Every single time, not looking at your child and immediately knowing what they're experiencing, what they're feeling, what they're thinking and knowing like what they need, but really just recognizing when your child is feeling maybe unheard or, or unseen, and then pressing in to try to understand what's happening with the child.

And he says that it's in this process of attunement or I'm sorry of misattunement. And then reattunement that you come to feel safe with your parents as a child, that, that you come to feel that you can trust them, that they're there for you. And he says, one of the huge barriers to this, I'll just read this quote.

He said, A parent that is distracted by their own needs. Their own wants their own emotions, their own personal pain can't be attuned to their child's needs. And that goes right along with some of the things that Miranda. And I said before, and so. It makes sense. Miranda, you know, given the, what he said here that, um, divorce is so harmful to children.

And because in most cases, parents are kind of, you know, going to war with each other and they're just so focused on their own stuff, their own paying their own needs, that they tend to neglect the needs of. You know, their children and the people around them. So just reflecting on this in my own life, you know, I think my mom, uh, when we were kids did a really good job of being there for us of trying to do this whole attunement thing that he talks about.

But when the separation happened, uh, she would just so overwhelmed. She had to now fill her role as a mother, and then also fill the dad role of providing and, and doing all that at, you know, at that time in my family, at least. And so it just was so consuming for her that she wasn't able to be there for us to recognize like what was going on inside of us.

Cause a lot of us were, we were really hurting and when we ended up acting on in all sorts of ways, but she just was overwhelmed. Couldn't be there for us. Like one of the things for me I know was I was just hanging around with like really bad friends, like friends who weren't good for me. And she didn't really recognize.

Yeah, I don't blame her for it. I, I do wish, you know, something was done sooner, but that, that was one thing. And then for my dad, when it came to attunement, I just recognized that, um, this is something he really struggled with. Like I mentioned before, he was just very, I think, overwhelmed with a lot of his own demons and brokenness, and it was just hard for him to focus on us.

And I don't wanna say he did this horribly cuz I'm sure, you know, he did it, um, better than maybe I remember, but um, I know this was a particular, uh, struggle for him that this whole attunement thing, but what about you Miranda? Yeah, it is hard. And I think the divorce like D just throws everything for loop and you know, a caveat of this by saying that a like I'm not, I don't have a great memory of early childhood.

And so a lot of what I remember is after is like either during or after the divorce. So I think that, you know, whatever I have to say is unfortunately going to be a little skewed and especially because I think the negative sometimes. Ends up sticking a lot more than the positive. Totally. So, but yeah, I think similar to what you're saying, you know, mom was better at yeah.

Knowing what I was feeling, what I was thinking, I think, yeah, with the separation, she also was just kind of really caught up in, in what she was going through. And I think that at that point there was, I guess, a misattunement and I think that it led to a lot of issues and I definitely similar to what you, your experience was, you know, kind of started going down paths that I wish I hadn't, and that I wish a parent had been there to, to say, you know, this isn't good, this isn't healthy.

Mm-hmm but yeah, I do think mom was a little bit more aware. She was more in tune to what was going on with me on a daily basis. Dad, He's just more oblivious in general, you know, but on top of that, the fact that we didn't live together after separation, like exacerbated that so much more. So he was a lot more oblivious except on occasions when I was like, it was extremely vocal.

So, but that being said, I'm not someone who's, you know, super great at hiding my emotions anyway. So I do think they probably both picked up on more than I'm giving them credit for. But I do think that the divorce led to a break in attunement, which I think is just kind of almost inevitable, you know?

Yeah. And I think it's a, at the core of why there's so many problems with it and. That makes a ton of sense. And the, the second thing that Adam Young says is, um, that the, uh, the next need, the second need is, uh, responsiveness. We have, we need our parents to basically take action based on what they see.

And, and that's what responsiveness is, is just taking action. As a result of the attunement of, of like recognizing the emotional state of, of the child and every child, he says needs their parent to be responsive when that child feels distressed or mad or sad or afraid anything. And the, the parent in that case needs to offer comfort care kindness.

Um, and hopefully, you know, if there was a break in the relationship they wanna bring reconnection. And one of the things he says in the episode, which was kind of striking for me, he said, uh, a lot of us believe that our parents weren't attuned to us. They didn't even recognize what we were thinking and feeling because if they did, then that meant that they didn't care enough to do anything about it.

And, and that's hard. It's hard to swallow if, if that was the case. And so looking back kind of on my own childhood, um, my mom was definitely good kind of again, at being responsive, but again, the divorce pulled her away from her ability to do that. And she just had to deal with her own pain and, and, um, you know, her own issues.

And I think my dad struggled with this for, for a long time. And like I mentioned with my mom, the divorce made it worse as well. Um, so I'm curious on the responsiveness need. Um, how did you experience this? Yeah, I, I definitely think that that was a, that was a hard one. I think mom, because, you know, probably because of what she was going through, she was kind of like emotionally tapped out.

So I think sometimes, you know, she was attuned, she did see my frustration or anger or, or hurt or whatever. but her response was often kind of dismissive. I think she just going through something like that, like you just kind of lose the capacity to really be open to another person, another person suffering mm-hmm , um, especially when it seemed maybe trivial, you know, compared to what you're going through.

So I think, you know, that was hard. And then I think dad, he wasn't dismissive, uh, in the same sense. Like he wa he didn't get angry or kind of, he didn't say like, oh, you just need to, you know, get over it kind of thing. I, and I, and I think this is just him not knowing how to, how to respond, but a lot of times he would laugh.

Like he would, yeah. Like that was his gut response was just to make light of it. And it, again, like it wasn't malicious, it wasn't him being mean or anything like that. It was just, I think that was just like, he didn't understand. And so. That his response was, was to find humor in it, but it's unfortunate.

But again, it wasn't like a malicious thing, but I do think it was kind of hurtful. And so that's something else that, you know, I have to take into account. Like even if your three year old is crying because you know, they can't find their Teddy wear and you're like, you know, this is not a big deal. You know, it is a big deal to them and you have to be able to step into their shoes as hard as that can be sometimes and try to respond.

Appropriately like Adam Young talks about. Yeah. And then that brings us to the next need, which he says you needed your parents to engage. So the next need is engagement. And this is a little bit different than responsiveness. Responsiveness is basically their, uh, reaction or response to the attunement.

Engagement's a little bit more proactive. It's beyond a reaction beyond a response, at least based on my understanding of it. Uh, it's really, yeah. This proactive pursuit, this intention to, to genuinely know you as a child, deeply on a heart level. And in that episode, he quotes, uh, a neuroscientist Kirk Thompson, uh, who said each one of us comes into this world, looking for someone, looking for us.

It's profound. And, uh, he, Adam goes on to say that the results, uh, of a lack of engagement is feeling abandoned as abandonment. And he says the, you know, that the core of abandonment is not physical abandonment, but rather, uh, a lack of attunement, a lack of responsiveness and a lack of engagement from your parents.

And again, he quotes, uh, Kirk Thompson, who, who said, we can grow up in homes in which the food finds the table. The money finds the college funds and the family even finds the church each Sunday. But somehow our hearts remain undiscovered by the two people. We most need to know us, our parents. So again, looking at this, um, there, there's just a huge difference in both of my parents before the divorce and after the divorce, um, especially with my mom just being, you know, emotionally tapped out, like you said, and, uh, with my dad, I.

Always admired him. Uh, especially growing up, he was just like my hero and I always wanted more from him. I always wanted, you know, more approval. I wanted more attention, more time from him. I couldn't necessarily put my finger in it when I was a kid, but looking back and, uh, I remember he coached my older brother, Anthony in, uh, baseball.

So he was his baseball coach when he was like in middle school. And that was like a year or two away for me. When he could like coach me and remember me just being so excited, like my, I was so excited. I was just thrilled. We loved baseball growing up, played for years and yeah, I just could not wait for my dad to be my coach.

And then my parents separated and that never happened. And that was just devastating for me. It was really hard to just kind of miss out in that whole experience. And I know everyone listening I'm sure has experiences like that as well, that were just kind of taken from you, Rob from you. And so, yeah, I really did want my dad, especially to engage with me and, and that certainly was a whole that yeah, just wasn't filled, unfortunately.

Yeah, that is really hard. I, I think my, you know, my dad was always good, you know, even after the separation, he, he would call pretty much every day and he always, you know, asked me about my day and it was always very surface level. And I think that, you know, things with my dad have always been surface level for.

Always but most of the time, but he did, you know, he has pursued me in the sense that, you know, a lot of people don't hear from, from their parents every week, even mm-hmm , you know? And so he, he has been really consistent about that. I do remember even after the divorce, confiding and dad about things that were going on at school and, you know, drama and all that stuff, he was very receptive and, you know, definitely emphasized, you know, you can always talk to me about this kind of thing.

And unfortunately, I think as I got older, I just got more guarded around him. So I kind of, I think that was lost to a degree. And I think then he just didn't know how to, how to pursue, but he has always been really good about checking in and my mom, you know, she. , she was always very encouraging and I, I played violin for a long time and she was always very like supportive and encouraging of that and of my writing.

Um, so I definitely felt like seen and yeah, just that she really cared about, about me because of, of how much she encouraged me with those things that she knew I cared about. So I think that that was really good. I think, you know, on an emotional level, that's probably where, you know, there was a lack from both of them.

And again, I think part of it was just like what you were saying before of their generation and how they were raised. Um, and then I think part of it too, was. As we've been saying, like the divorce and what they've been going through and yeah. Being, being emotionally tapped out. So, so I do think there was good there.

Um, and I think that there was, you know, some struggles as well. Sure. No, that makes sense. Yeah. The next need is you needed your parents to regulate your affect and affect is again, kind of this funny word, but basically affect means your internal, emotional state. That felt sense of what's happening inside of you.

And that's what Adam Young explains that. And he says that there's kind of a range of feelings that we experience everything from, you know, numb and shut down to terrified and panicked kind of the heightened side of the spectrum. And so when you're stressed out, he says your affect is dysregulated.

That's how psychologists talk about it. And as children, we had very little ability to regulate our. To kind of recognize what was happening inside of us and do something about it. And infants, especially have zero ability to do that. They're completely reliant on their mother on their father. And so it's so important when we were children that if, um, we were hungry and tired or afraid that we had our parents there to soothe us, to comfort us, he says, and you know, even if we were getting numb or kind shut down, we needed someone there to stimulate us to prevent us from kind of going numb.

And yeah, he says, Adam Young says that to be effective at regulating your affect a parent needs to do basically all of the prior three things that we talked about, uh, attunement, responsiveness, and engagement. And by watching them do that for us, especially as young children, we learn to do it for ourselves.

And so, um, if that didn't happen, if your affect was not regulated, uh, then you would've been forced to do it yourself. If your parent didn't do it for you. And like I mentioned, If you're young, especially, uh, you don't have the ability to do that, or maybe you're going through something traumatic where there's a lot of overwhelming emotions.

You really need someone to walk through you with that who has more capacity to deal with those difficult things in your life. And if that didn't happen, then it leaves a lot of damage. And again, go into my own story. I, I felt this so much after the separation emotionally inside edge, it was just a mess and I didn't know how to deal with it like Miranda.

I'm sure you can relate. I was angry. I was depressed. I was anxious and I just found no comfort or relief in my parents, to be honest. And again, they were just so consumed, uh, with what was going on in their own lives that I ended up looking for comfort elsewhere, just trying to regulate, you know, my own affect, just deal with my own emotions by, you know, looking up porn.

By, you know, kind of diving into sports and just kind of escaping into, you know, just different things in my life. And so definitely, definitely had struggles there. And I think in some ways I still do, I'm made a lot of progress with this, but, um, it is, it's such a real need, isn't it? Yeah, no, it totally is.

And I think with, with my mom, a lot of times when I was angry and I expressed that, um, which I think she saw a lot more of that than my dad did after the separation. She, her response was to also get angry and I get it, you know, I think I, you know, I can kind of understand why that would be her response.

And I probably said some hurtful things. I mean, not probably, I, I, I think I do remember saying things that were, that were mean or hurtful, but like you said, you need someone when you're young to kind of help you learn how to. Manage your anger. And I think for me, you know, the response I got was like, I don't want this, you know, I don't wanna see this.

This is, this is wrong. I think dad was more when, you know, the few times that I did express strong emotions around him, he was more common wanting to help. Um, but I think the challenge has been feeling comfortable expressing those around him. And then there have been, like I said, a few times where he, he just didn't didn't respond well, you know, kind of made light of it.

And I think that kind of has stopped me from continuing to, yeah. To be open with open and honest with him. So I, from that, I think I kind of learned to suppress, especially when I was just hurting and to hide what I was feeling or at the very least not to talk about it. And I've seen that. Come to fruition a lot in my marriage.

And before that, when we, my husband and I were dating, just not wanting to talk about what I was feeling and that being really frustrating for him. He can tell something's wrong. He can tell, tell I'm upset, but I, I feel like I can't open up to him about it. Wow. That's profound. So yeah, you basically just learn that response to like regulate your affect and that carried into your own marriage and, and it makes so much sense.

And that brings us to the next need. Adam Young says that you needed your parents to be strong enough to handle. Negative emotions. And so he asked the question, you know, how did your parents react to your negative emotions? Like anger, sadness, fear, like, what did they do? And Miranda, you just talked about that.

He says that, you know, we needed them to like, we needed to be free. To express those negative emotions as children, knowing that we would be responded to in a positive way. And, and he says that you needed to know your emotions were accepted and allowed. And even to the point where you feel free to say, like I hit you or you're mean, or something kind of shocking and extreme without getting scolded or shamed or told that.

Know that wasn't appropriate. And this is kind of shocking to hear. I think a lot of parents struggle with this one because especially parents who wanna raise, I think this is almost everyone. Like you wanna raise good kids and having hearing them say these strong things, because they feel strongly about something can be really hard.

But I experienced that as well in my own family where, when I felt something strongly, I, especially on my dad's side, it was kind of the opposite with my dad. He would react kind of with the, a stronger emotion. Like if I felt angry, he would get even angrier. And so then I learned also to suppress and with my mom too, there was just kind of this sense that, okay, anger is bad because we've, you know, experienced, uh, in different ways.

People getting really angry and it not having a good, um, ending and. One of the things Adam Young said is that, uh, your child should feel free to express rage at you. So this kind of goes back to what you said before Miranda with like feeling wrath yet your, your child should feel free to express that rage at you.

And, um, one of the problems that he points at when it comes to this need, um, he says that perhaps your family was too fragile to bear the weight of your unedited soul. And, and this one really, really struck me well. And I think one of the things I saw, especially in my dad was, um, yeah, because he struggled with his own anger.

I tended to follow suit and then feel that, oh, I can't express anger to him because that would just evoke a greater anger. That would just not end well, well, I mean, I did, yeah. I kind of addressed that before, but I did, I was shocked when he kind of talked about, you know, the, the two stories of his little kids of how they express.

Their anger towards him. And, um, it's hard to imagine. Like I do think that that's heartbreaking, you know, as a parent, like, or, or it's just infuriating, you know, I'm glad he said that because I don't think, I would've thought that was the appropriate response. Cuz my thought would've been, you know, you need to be respectful.

You need to just treat your parents, you know, with respect. And so, and not to say that they shouldn't, but you know, he is saying, you know, we tell, we need to allow room. We need to allow them the space to experience breath, and then to teach them how to, how to handle it. But it was kind of, it did catch me off guard when, when he talked about, you know, like it's okay for them to.

To express that and it's okay for them to almost like, let it out, you know, on you, um, whatever they're experiencing and it's not something to me, it didn't seem something that was very intuitive and maybe that's just cuz of my own experience, but I was definitely, yeah, just kind of taken aback a little bit me as well.

Yeah. And, um, Yeah. Just, I think like you were saying just the results. If we don't feel that freedom is suppression and that's always gonna come out in some other way. And so I think it's, it's better to, like you said, to be there with your kids in those difficult emotions and teach them how to handle them and what to do, what action to take as a result of what they feel as opposed to just like shoving it away.

And then they're just gonna, like, we've been saying, they're gonna have to deal with it on their own. And, and that brings us to the last point, which is you needed your parents to, um, yeah. Have a willingness to repair when there was a disconnect when there was disconnection, uh, especially when they hurt you.

He says, and, and, uh, Adam Young says, this is a direct quote. He said, when your parents hurt you, did they own and rectify, rectify the harm they did. A healthy, trusting attachment is not built on the absence of failure. All parents fail many, many times a healthy relationship is not built on the absence of failure, but on the willingness of the parent to own and rectify the failures.

When they do occur. And so he just, again, emphasizes that no parent gets it right. A hundred percent of the time, even the best parents, like you pointed out before Miranda. And he says, that's, that's no big deal. What really matters is that when there is a break in their relationship, when there is an issue, a misattunement, uh, that there is reattunement that we connect again, that there's re-engagement that things are made, right?

There's um, an apology, there's a conversation, something to reconnect, to bring comfort into the relationship. And, uh, growing up, my mom was pretty good at this actually at, at the reconnecting, she was, you know, willing to apologize, even if at times it was hard, uh, with my dad, this was a struggle. And I think a lot of men struggle with this because we tend to have these big egos.

I, you know, was thinking and preparing for this show. I was like trying to remember a time where he apologized for something, especially like that was bigger. And I, I struggled with that. And so I, I think he, you know, had a hard time admitting when he was at fault. And again, I think a lot of parents have this issue, especially fathers, maybe feeling like we can't show weakness or we're expected to get everything right.

And so we don't admit when we're wrong. And that was really damaging and inhibited caused us not to have that reconnection because there was just this whole line of things that were never addressed, that we were just like carrying around with us. So it's certainly it's this maybe is the most important of them all to, um, repair when there is, uh, that disconnect.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think for me, it was a little bit flipped. I mean, I had a lot more conflict with mom because. You know, I was with her more. Um, and she, she just wouldn't apologize. Um, we always had to be the ones to seek her out after a conflict. And I think that that's something that led me and my siblings to be extremely conflict diverse, cuz we were afraid of her anger and we were afraid of not, you know, getting the love back, you know?

And so yeah, I think that was hard. And then with dad, it was just, we, we really rarely fought because again, like I just, I didn't feel that closeness with him. So it was more like if it was fighting, it was more like I'm annoyed, you know? So it wasn't really a true fight that that required like a, an apology or something like that.

And yeah, so I, I don't, I don't think I really had an experience. I think the one time, you know, where. I felt like an apology was owed was, you know, when he, we had a conversation about the fact that he left, you know, left the family, but also left the country like right after the divorce and how that really affected me.

And, you know, for him, he couldn't see where he had done wrong. He just said, you know, I did what I had to do and it wasn't about you, you know, but I think I really needed a tea here, you know, I'm sorry that you felt abandoned. And I think it's just like a lack of understanding. So I do think that that repairing disconnect was a hard one for us.

Absolutely. So just to summarize everything, uh, the first need is attunement next responsiveness, third engagement. Fourth, uh, regulate your affect fifth strong enough to handle negative emotions and then six, uh, your parents' willingness to repair when there was disconnection. And so a lot to talk about here, but yeah.

How do we do this right. Miranda? What, what are we gonna do with our own kids in the future? Uh, a few thoughts on my end. Like some things I wanna do I think, to, to do this stuff right. To fill those six needs the right way, um, is just being really intentional about it. Just focusing on it, having that desire and keeping that front of mind.

Uh, I think also curiosity is needed, especially when it comes to atunement like paying attention to, you know, just different shifts and moods or things that are happening with your children and reading their faces and asking good questions and then digging deeper when something is kind of unclear.

You're not quite sure what's going on. And then I think another thing too is just prioritizing time with your children and just. Being a good parent and just understanding that, yeah, you can go work for 80 hours a week and make a ton of money, but you're gonna leave your children bankrupt, emotionally, if you are not there for them, you're not emotionally engaging with them.

So I think one of the things I think so hard for all of us, but especially for parents, is just letting go of the less important things because being a parent, uh, so I'm told I'm not one yet. Well, I am one now, but I don't have our baby here. It it's so important to make sure that we're spending lots of time, uh, with, with our kids.

And so those are a few things. I think a growth mindset's really important as well. Just understanding that we can get better. We can change, we can grow. We're not stuck. And, uh, and then, like we mentioned at a few points, like healing our own brokenness so that we are not just passing that on to our kids are so consumed by it that we're damaging them or neglecting them.

And, uh, you know, having a plan too, with our kids, like I've heard some parents do individual date nights with their kids. Uh, we had, uh, Justin bad on this show who, uh, you know, runs daddy Saturday. So he spends like every Saturday with his kids, he spent over, I think it's 14,000 hours with his kids, which was just amazing, you know, when it comes to the negative emotions thing, I think it's so important to like tell your kids, this is one of the things I wanna really clearly communicate to my kids is that it's okay to have those negative emotions to feel them.

They're actually, they're there for a reason and we need to teach them that and teach them, uh, how to handle those well, and, and don't shame them when they feel them. There's nothing wrong with them. And then of course, you know, modeling, uh, in your marriage, like how to do all these things right between you and your spouse, like having that attunement with your spouse.

Obviously it's not the same as like a parent-child relationship, but just recognizing things. Healing the relationship, if something goes wrong and along with that is having the, uh, humility to admit when you're wrong and to make that relationship. Right. And, um, yeah, just to expect there to be breaks in the relationship, but then always be working toward it.

So, yeah, just in closing Miranda, what were some final thoughts that you would give to everyone, um, on how to do this? Right. And how you wanna do that right. In your own parenting. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think that everything you said is very true and I think it'll be very helpful. Um, I, I had present moment awareness kind of like what you said about paying attention.

Um, just trying to, to yeah. Be present, um, which I think can be hard, cuz like you said, we get distracted by a whole lot of things, but I think trying as much as possible to, to just be in the moment with your kids. I also think self care is important. Like I, I do. I do think it, you know, obviously you have to put your, your kids first, you know, they, they can't take, especially when they're really young, like they can't take care of themselves.

So you have to, you have to make sure that their needs are being met. But I do think that it's not an excuse to like stop taking care of yourself spiritually, physically, emotionally, you know? So if you, if there's some wounds you need to work on like, make time for therapy or, or journaling or, or something like that.

If, if you are feeling, you know, really tired, like, okay, like how can you get more sleep? Like how, you know, how can you make sure that you're, you're being the best parent that you can be? And a lot of that is just making sure that you are taken care of, like you're, you're taking care of yourself. You know, if, if you like setting aside time for prayer, just time to, you know, better yourself as a person.

I think that's really important. And. Yeah. If you have wounds, like you said, like struggles, which we all do taking the time to, to work through those. And if you're not, if you don't know where to start, if you're overwhelmed, like asking for help. Um, I think empathizing is really important, um, learning that's skill, which it can be learned, you know, if, if we're not there yet, that's okay.

But, um, more and more trying to step into the experience of other people and especially of our kids. I think, you know, trying not to take things personally, especially when your kids having a bad day, when there is a temper tantrum, when, you know, I think it sometimes does feel really personal mm-hmm . And so it's like, okay, like this isn't necessarily about me, you know, something's going on in their world.

That's causing them to be unhappy and trying to help them through that instead of getting defensive or upset because. You feel like they're making your life more difficult, having that space between the reaction and the response? I think those are, those are some things. And just remembering, like you have to set the example for how to handle emotion.

So like if you fly off the handle, when things don't go well, that's very likely that your kids are gonna learn to do that too. I think there is gonna be conflict. There is going to be hurt. And, you know, kind of like we, we were talking about with reconciliation, just always making sure that the kid knows that they're loved, you know, even when you're upset, even when you're disappointed, you know, I love you.

Even if it's, it's kind of tense right now, I love you. And that, you know, having the humility to, to, to apologize when, when you do mess up, because we all do and we all will. Yeah. I think those are some things. That could help with these six things that Adam Young talks about. So good Miranda, thanks for your insight.

Thanks for your time. I hope this has been helpful to all of you listening and definitely recommend listening to episode two of the place we find ourselves. If you wanna reflect on this more about how you, um, you know, have these needs filled, or maybe not filled by your parents growing up and what you can do in the future, uh, when it comes time for you to become a parent.

So Miranda, thank you so much for your time. Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.

Thanks so much for listening. Definitely a long episode, but I hope it was valuable for you. My question for you to reflect on is what lessons did you learn from your parents that you wanna repeat with your own kids one day? And which ones do you not wanna repeat? Think about that. Give us some thought, write them down.

Talk to your husband or wife about 'em. If you're married or if you're engaged or dating someone, talk to your significant other. It's really, really good to have these conversations now so that we can bring about those changes that we wanna enact with our own kids. If ReSTOR has helped you in any way, we'd love to hear about it, whether this podcast has been helpful or maybe a blog article, or really anything that we do, if it's been helpful for you, we wanna hear about it.

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#045: How to Become the Dad You Wish You Had | Justin Batt

It’s no secret that we’re facing a huge crisis of fatherlessness. So many fathers have physically or emotionally abandoned their children, largely because nobody ever showed them how to be a great dad. This problem is at the root of so many issues in our world. So, what’s the solution?

In this episode, Justin Batt from Daddy Saturday offers advice and encouragement to current or future dads on how to raise good kids who become great adults. We discuss:

• How do we fix the fatherlessness crisis?

• Practical advice on how to become a great dad from a father who’s spent 14,000 hours and 500 intentional Saturdays with his kids

• Encouragement for any men out there who feel like they don’t have what it takes to be a great father, especially because you didn’t receive it from your dad growing up

Buy the Book: Daddy Saturday

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It's probably no surprise to you that we're facing a huge crisis of fatherlessness in our world where dads abandon their kids, either physically leaving or emotionally checking out. And as those of us who come from broken homes know this is extremely painful. It's extremely difficult. So many of us have experienced fathers who just left or at least emotionally checked out.

From our lives and not all of us have experienced that, right? Some of us have great fathers, even when our parents' marriage broke apart, but all of us can agree. This is a huge problem. And it's at the root of so many of the other problems that we see in our culture today. But there is a solution which we're gonna discuss in this episode.

And if you're not a dad, Keep listening. This is good stuff. It still applies to you, whether fatherhood's maybe two years away or 10 years away. And ladies listening right now, maybe you're married. Maybe you're not, but this is gonna be a great resource. Both this episode itself and my guests and his nonprofit for any men in your life who again, wanna become fathers and maybe they are fathers now.

So lots of good stuff in here for you as well. And what you're gonna get out of this episode, everyone is we're gonna talk about how serious. Is this crisis of fatherlessness and how do we fix it? You're gonna get practical advice on how to start becoming a great dad, perhaps even the, the father that you never had, that, that you wish you had from a dad who spent 14,000 hours and 500 intentional Saturdays.

With his kids and my guest gives encouragement to any of you men out there, especially who come from broken families, who, who feel like you just don't have what it takes to be a great dad. Like you're, you're not capable of doing that. So a lot of great content ahead. Keep listening.

Welcome to the ReSTOR podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce, separation or broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Elli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 40. Before we dive into the episode, I wanna make sure you know, that you can submit a question for us to answer on the show, either answered by my guest or answered by me.

It's really exciting. We wanna hear directly from you here, the challenges that you're struggling with and the questions that you have when it comes to navigating the pain and the problems from your parents' divorce separation are broken marriage. And some of the benefits you can ask, anything that you want.

Like maybe you. Stuck in life right now. And you're not sure how to get unstuck and how to heal and, and move on with your life. Or maybe you're someone who loves or leads someone who comes from a broken family. And you're not sure, like how do you go about helping them? Whatever your question. We're gonna give you specific and practical answers right here on the show.

So if you wanna submit a question to us, just go to restored ministry. Dot com slash ask Joey again, restored ministry ministry, singular.com/ask Joey, just one word on that page. Just fill out the form, submit your question. And then as we're able, we'll answer your question on the show. Feel free to even pause this episode right now.

Go ask your question and then come back to finish the. Super thrilled that it have Justin bat on the show. Justin's an incredible man found out about him recently in his nonprofit daddy Saturday, which I'm gonna tell you about in a second, but Justin aims to disrupt fatherhood with intentionality by creating intentional fathers who raise good kids who become.

Great adults. And like I mentioned, he founded daddy Saturday in his own backyard with his four children. And it's grown into this national movement, engaging fathers across multiple channels, including YouTube, social media, the daddy Saturday book, uh, and Alexa skill, a podcast merchandise live events and a 5 0 1 C3 foundation through which Justin plans to impact 10 million fathers in the next.

10 years. It was incredible. In addition, Justin is a highly sought after healthcare consultant and a successful serial entrepreneur, as well as a TEDx and international public speaker, a multi published author and a regular guest on multiple. Podcast. And when he is not at work, Justin can be found helping his wife, Heather run her bridal enterprise and spending time with his four children and the family's bead doodle named weekend.

Super thrilled to have Justin on the show. Let's not wait any longer. Here's my interview with

Justin. Thanks so much for being here. A huge fan of your work. Hey, Joey. So good to be on with you as well. Thank you for having. Absolutely. You talk a lot about the crisis of fatherlessness that we're facing in our world, if you would, what do you mean by that? And how serious is this crisis? Well, when you look at most of the, we call 'em societal ills.

So most of the, the negative consequences that are impacting our society today, not just in America, but around the world, think of things like suicide, depression, anxiety, even some of the school shootings, teenage pregnancy. Divorced down the road. A lot of these issues that we have in our world are caused by fatherlessness.

When you think about human trafficking, which is a, an epidemic in and of itself today, I talked to a major leader in the space and I said, how many of the kids that you've rescued? The thousands of kids didn't have a father in the home. And he said a hundred percent. So even things like human trafficking are part of this and the fatherlessness epidemic.

Is because of two areas. One is the lack of a biological father living in the home. There's over 24 million kids in America today. They don't have a biological father living in the home and there's millions more that have a dad who's in the home, but he's physically present and emotionally absent.

That's another form of fatherlessness. And so through our organization, daddy, Saturday, we work to address both sides of that fatherlessness. And really help the dads who are in the home, be intentional and engaged, and also support those kids that don't have a father or father figure in their lives.

Incredible. This is such a massive pro uh, problem and project that you're taking on. So I'm, I'm really grateful for the work that you do. Um, let's get into this solution a little bit more to this big problem. What is this solution? And I know your work daddy Saturday is, is a big part of that solution. So tell us if you would a little bit about.

Well, I think you gotta look at both sides of that fatherless in his coin. And if you look at the fathers who are in the home, a big part of that is, you know, as dads, I've got four kids, I've been a dad now for 13 years. And when we had our first daughter, I didn't know anything about fatherhood. I learned fatherhood from my father and he wasn't a perfect dad.

I took the example that he had said and tried to apply some of those things and do a few things better in my own life. And I read some books and, you know, watched some YouTube videos. And that was my role of trying to figure out. What fatherhood was about. I'm also, I'm, I'm a man of faith. I'm a Christian.

So I, I went to the Bible and looked for some examples there. And, you know, there's just not a lot of fatherhood, frankly. That's out there. And most of the stuff was also from PhDs and was on the, the topic of more theology or theory around fatherhood. There wasn't a lot of practical advice on being a dad.

And so I figured it out like most dads do and stumbled process that first claims wanna be a good dad. They wanna be engaged. but they have a challenge. And that challenge is the fact that once they start to, to get into it and they have a few issues or stumbling blocks, then they kind of just go dark and they say, I, I don't know what I'm doing.

I don't know how to figure this thing out. I'm, I'm insecure. I'm feeling inadequate, I'm ill equipped. And so they start to shut down as a dad. And I think that the role and the goal of solving that is by helping fathers, reengage and reign. Their their role in their calling to be an intentional and engaged dad.

And that we're intentionality is really the core of our platform and how we help those dads, how I've helped myself, uh, engage my kids, creating epic moments and epic memories and building a legacy and helping them identify their calling. So they become good kids that become great adults. That's one side of that.

The other side is the child who doesn't have a father or father figure in their. And to address that issue. We need to equip them with education and help them understand and, and gain knowledge and access to knowledge that a father, father figure would provide for them. We also need to allow them to bump up against and aside really strong and great men who can show them what, what true masculinity is and what the role of a father.

That can be through coaches and mentors, teachers, church leaders, et cetera. So there's lots of ways to do that, but those are the two forms of fatherlessness. Two summaries of how we address both of those. So good. And in my own life, just having struggles in my own family, you know, in my relationship with my dad, the breakdown of my parents' marriage and all of that, I have to say, like you mentioned mentors, that's been so healing and so helpful for me in becoming, uh, the man that I wanna be the man that God wants me to be.

And so I, I love that you're approaching it like that. And you're, you know, not just giving a generic solution, you're really looking at the problem, understanding it and going after it, I wanna shift gears a little bit and speak to all the, the new fathers listening and the future fathers, all those men out there.

What are some practical things dads can do? Uh, even right now, for those of us who, who are dads to, to fill their kids' needs. Great question. And I'll tell you, it's really interesting. I've got, we live south of Nashville, Tennessee, and I have a lot of young men in their late twenties, early thirties. Most of them are not even fathers yet or even married yet.

And they're kind of coming around me because they, they want to learn. They have this earnest desire to be a good father, be a great father and, and they wanna start to equip themselves even well before they're ready for. And I love seeing that. I just, I'm still young enough that I'm relevant and they can see maybe a vision of what they, they want in the future.

You know, I'm not perfect. It looks something like what we have to my wife and I, and our four kids, but I'm not old enough that I'm still not relevant in space. So sure. This question is really, really top of mind for me right now, because I have all these young men around me and they're craving for that knowledge and craving for that advice.

So what I would tell any young man or young father. there's a couple of key principles. The first one is to recognize that not your job to be your kid's hero. I think that's really important to understand you need to be your kid's guide, because if you're your kid's hero, then what happens is you take the role of them achieving success or failure in their own life.

Oftentimes that's preventing them from experiencing failure, which they need to have at a young age when it's inconsequential. Right. Failure at, at 2, 3, 4, even eight years old is way different than failure at 22 32 42. Absolutely. And so if you experience failure in your youth, then you understand that process and, and have the mechanisms for dealing with failure for failing forward.

And understanding failure can be a superpower if done, if done. Right. And well, and so when you also serve as a guide, and this is really key for young men and young fathers is you allow other guides to come into your kids' lives and come into your life to serve where you don't have areas of expertise.

So that may be in the form of another man. Who's older than you, who you see someone that's in the, the church community or business community. What have you. That is a, is an example of the type of father you want to be. Maybe if you didn't have that kind of dad finding someone else who can mentor you as a father and give you a peek behind the door, around the corner for what that's gonna look like and what you need to know, that's what our platform tries to do.

So that's one thing I think the other thing is if your kids get a little bit older, it allows you to bring those guides into your kids' life and serve your kids by giving them experiences or skill sets that you can't give them for. I am not handy at all. Like I'm no chip gain I didn't grow up around cars and automobiles.

And so my kids want to build an obstacle course for daddy Saturday. Like I'm not the guy for the job, but I have lots of friends that are, and other dads that are, and so they can help come in and teach my kids skills like carpentry or working on an automobile or even, um, hunting and fishing in certain capacities that I don't have experience around.

My kids have had some of the coolest, most amazing experiences. Because I've let my ego go. I've served as a guide and allow other guides to come into my kids' lives. And that has served both myself and my kids extremely well. I'd also say that when you do that, it gives you a chance to zoom out and have a different perspective on your kids and, and your relationship because you get to just watch your kids and observe, and you'll learn far more about your kids when you're, when you're kind of.

The scenario without perspective then being in it. And as dads, we have a tendency to be in it all the time, doing it, solving it, fixing. and when you zoom out, it gives you a chance to really look at your kids' personality, understand who they are and what they're called to be so good. And I think that takes a lot of pressure off fathers as well.

I'm a, a new dad right now. My wife and I are expecting a baby in about two months here. And we're, we're so excited a little girl on the way. And so I have to admit this interview's a little bit selfish. I wanted to. Learn from you and, and hear, yeah, just the practical things that you would say to, to really start living this out.

Cause I wanna do it right. I wanna do what you said. Um, so I identify a lot with those men, those young men who are coming around you and, and looking for guidance. And so, uh, but yeah, I think, I think it takes pressure off cuz I think dads, uh, and moms, but especially dads, I think we have this expectation and maybe it's our pride that tells us we have to.

Know everything and have everything together. And we have to be the sole source. Like you said, the KIRO, the one who, who rescues the day all the time. Yeah. And, and that's, you know, it's a, it's a myth. We tell ourselves, it's the story we tell ourselves in, in our heads is dads and his men. And you know what?

So my last name is bat. I grew up as a fan of Batman. All my, I have three boys as well as our daughter and Batman is like a concert around our house. So I'm always like, who's my superhero, right? It's Batman, of course, by default, there's some other cool superheroes and great superpowers as well. But I always go back to Batman.

It's kinda like the quote and life always be yourself, unless you can be Batman, always be Batman we live by that in our household. But at the same time, um, I uncovered my superpower and it, it surprised me greatly. And I think it'll probably surprise you as well. My superpower is. I think for any dad, that's what I want you to hear.

New dad, old dad, doesn't matter. Season dad, I should call an old dad a season. Dad sacrifices your superpower. And here's why because I've spent over 14,000 hours engaging my kids combined Saturdays over the last 13 years. I've spent over 500 Saturdays with my kid and plus substantial investment. I don't have a golf game.

I've given them a lot of friendships and relationships. I quit drinking four years ago. Cause alcohol wasn't helping me do my best on those Saturdays. And, and other times with my kid, I. Have given up a lot of hobbies. I don't do long distance athletic events anymore because the training regimen is too much and it pulls me away from my family.

So there are things like that, that I've made huge sacrifices in over time, but those sacrifices are investments in my children investments in my marriage investments, in our legacy together. And I know looking back, it's going be, you know, exponential in terms of the growth and the relationship that we have long term, and it's a big journey.

So my encouragement would be. Really understanding that, you know, what is your superpower as a dad? Your superpower is sacrifice. And sometimes that sacrifice comes in the form will also be quick to say, you're sorry. Been quick to apologize, know you're wrong and to move forward, cuz we're all gonna make mistakes.

There is no perfect dad. Um, you will, you will make. Mistakes you will fall short. Um, it is inevitable. I do it daily and I'm in the space trying to be really great at it and great at it for other people. And I still fall short all the time. Yeah, no, it's so good. And the, the humility factor that, that you mentioned, I think is so important for all of us to hear because man, our egos can be the enemy.

And so I, I love what you said and I also love Batman. my favorite movie. No, no kidding. Uh, is Batman begins. There's just so much in that movie that I resonate with. And so I. I love what you mentioned. Uh, I wanna get a little bit personal here. You, you mentioned that you make mistakes, you've messed up and, and I think that's, uh, really helpful to hear because it, we can learn so much from you.

And so I'm curious, like through those failures, what, what are a couple things that you've learned along the way that, that we can learn from, from you? Well, I think it's really important to understand who you are first as an individual, as, as a person, understand what your trigger points are. Underst. Your personality style.

Are you an Exploder? Are you an imploder right? Are you aggressive? Are you passive aggressive? How do you handle those relationships? What are your fear? Buttons? There's a great book by Gary Smalley called the DNA of relationships. And my two fear buttons were fear of, of controls. Other people controlling me.

The other one was, uh, fear of being invalidated and, oh my goodness. Talk about two fear buttons that kids can step on all the time. There's many times where I feel like things are out of control or I'm losing control, especially with four kids and then being invalidated. Oh my goodness. Right? You're in the middle of a store and your child starts to have a meltdown or starts to behave in a way that is so unbecoming of who you know, that they are or what you would want them to do, or you know what our, our rules are as a.

and like, talk about being invalidated, right? It's like you wanna have one of those Walmart moments on your kids. Mm-hmm . And so how do you understand that process of who you are and what your fear buttons are and what your insecurities are? Because listen, your kids are gonna bring out every single one of those.

They're gonna invalidate you constantly. You're gonna feel like you have many points along the journey, the most selfish, ungrateful people in your life. And I have incredible kids. I mean, they're amazing. but oftentimes other people get their best and we tend to get their worst. So as parents, and that's the way for a lot of parents.

And so just understanding that and what those trigger points are. So that like for me, I go 110 miles an hour. I'm very, very passionate. So my volume can get loud quickly. There are many points where I've had a temper and I've lost my temper at times with my kids. And it is horrible. I hate. and, you know, looking back, those are such moments of regrets in my life as a parent.

And there's still points where I mess up, but I've got the awareness. Now I've got the triggers that I know are gonna happen. And so I can maintain the relationship first, instead of focusing on the result that I maybe want to have happen. And that alone is so important because at the end of the day, when you look at the long tail of father, Your kids, you want them to come around and be around you when they have the option to, and the only way that's gonna happen.

And especially as a new dad to be thinking that long term, it's really important because the way you do that is by relationship. And if you build a relationship, right, and that includes making mistakes and saying, you're sorry, and showing them how to apologize. Then you'll have that long term relationship.

So good. And that goes back to your tagline, which is, you know, raising good kids who become great adults. Like you're not just in it to be your kid's best friend, but you're really thinking long term, which I love just for, for any man out there right now. Who, who comes from a broken home, especially who didn't see what it was like to, to be a good dad.

What encouragement would you give to him? Especially if he just doesn't feel like he has what it takes to be that great father you're talking. Well, what I would say is you have what it takes. You just don't know what it takes. Cause you didn't have that model for you. And that's not your fault. So I would say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that you didn't have a dad in your life that showed you that.

And, and I, I feel for you and that is a horrible, horrible thing. Um, you may be a, a kid who, or a child who had a, a dad that was in their life, but maybe didn't model things very well and raised you in a way. There was some, some damage done, right? We almost all have a father wound, whether that was abandonment or performance based fathers or authoritarian fathers.

There's a lot of, of ways that we were all raised and issues that we have and wounds that we have your job is to learn what that wound is. It's to achieve healing and offer forgiveness for your father, whether you've met him or he is there or not. And then it's to look at your own relationship with your kids and realize that you don't have to pass that down to your own kid.

That bitter. Is cut out and ends with you. You have the option to choose the father. You want to be to your kids, whether you had a dad or a good dad or not, that's irrelevant. And so you have the power to choose the relationship, the legacy, the memories that you wanna have with your own children. And then it's your role then to take fatherhood seriously and to go out and learn.

Cuz none of us know, we all have that wound. And so what resources are you gonna take advantage of what people you're gonna surround yourself? And how are you going to treat fatherhood as if it's your life's work and you're gonna work at it with everything you have to be the best father you could possibly be.

Love it. Yeah. And that goes back to what you said before. Just this mentality that you can't do it alone, which I greatly appreciate. And again, takes a lot of pressure off knowing that you can lean on other people let's shift over to, uh, to young people who don't have father. how can they, uh, again, these young people who maybe like you said, they didn't have a FA father physically present, or maybe their dad was there, but he was emotionally checked out.

How can they compensate for those needs that dad never filled? And I'm sure this is gonna echo some of the advice you've already given, but I'm curious specifically here, how could they compensate to fill those needs? Well, , you know, that's a really big question. That's the role of the father is to provide so many of those, those values and examples.

And to, to teach, we, we have a principal on daddy Saturday that that says far more is caught than taught. And so, so much of that is just by being around a father, father figure. I have a, a gentleman that I know who's in his sixties and he went to the foster system and was an orphan. It didn't have a dad in his life.

He told me this story that blew my mind. He said he finally was adopted by this, or was in a foster family. And the dad came home for dinner every night. The dad brought his paycheck home and spent his money on his family. And, and he would sit at dinner and he'd have a couple conversations. And the dad came home every single night and he never had that in his whole life.

Those simple things of having a dad come home every night and be there for dinner and spend his money on his family to provide for. Was earth shattering for him. And so I want you just to have perspective, right? That, that no matter what your situation is, you can rise above it and rise out of it. I think that there are going to be deficiencies or areas of, of weakness, or just areas where you have insecurity or have lack of knowledge as a father.

That's going to be natural depending on your situation. It could be greater than others. But what I would challenge everyone with is to say, you've got the ability. To learn and to grow and to rise above all those circumstances. Now how you do that is up to you. But I think that as long as you're motivated to move down that path towards learning and growing and not letting it be a stumbling block, or even an excuse, frankly, or to play the victim mentality, cause it's not gonna get you anywhere.

And that may sound like it's harsh. Um, but at the end of the. You are responsible for your role to your own children as the type of father you want to be. And yes, your father may have had an impact on you and his abandonment or lack of being there may have had a huge impact on you, but there are so many people and resources, and we're creating some resources guys that are gonna blow your mind.

That'll help with this exact same thing that are coming out. They're just not out yet. But, um, I can speak to that and say, there is content. There is, there are books. There are videos there. All sorts of different opportunities to help you grow beyond what you were lacking from your own father. Love it.

Thank you for that. And please tell us a little bit about what are you offering at daddy Saturday, both for dads, and then also for, uh, young people who don't have a dad. So daddy, saturday.com is the hub for everything. It's it's the website. I think we've got a couple of opportunities there that I'll, I'll mention quickly.

So one. For dads who just want information. We're starting a couple of new platforms called the two minute drill. We've got our data Saturday playbook. These are all about ideas. If you can quickly implement easily with your kids to create epic memories together, that's how you be intentional, how you engage 'em um, you can find the book there.

The book is our, our playbook for fatherhood being intentional, super practical. And then we're launching a, a mobile application. The mobile app is gonna house our curriculum called dad boss. Which is all around how you grow as a father and level up and faith, family fitness and finances, and then also develop friendships.

And none of those friendships there'll be virtual communities. You can join based areas of interest like new dads or divorce dads, or girl dads, whatever that is. Um, we're also starting our local community coaches. So you can step up and say, I wanna be a daddy Saturday coach in my local. That will allow you to then be that leader and step up and have other dads join you in community and do amazing epic activities with your kids, as well as their kids and your local community.

So those are some resources for dads, uh, for kids. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited. So, uh, we both know of, or no, Donald Miller story brand business made simple. Um, I just got certified as a business made simple. Awesome. I'm launching a program called kid boss and kid boss is gonna provide life changing business education for every child, which I believe they should have access to.

And it is going to help them become an entrepreneur, start their own business, learn how to do that and do it well and essentially own their future. And so we'll have that opportunity. We'll, we'll teach dads how to help your kids do that. And then we've got a program directly for kids and it's all.

Business made simple story brand hero on a mission, which are, are Donald Miller's, uh, just amazing curriculums. Love it. So good. Congrats on that. I, I didn't know you were a coach and that's, that's amazing. And I look forward to seeing what you produce and, uh, promoting it to, to our audience and really grateful for you for your time.

If people wanna follow you on social and other places, what's the best way to do that. Yeah. So follow me personally, add Justin bat on LinkedIn. That's where you can connect with me. Also, uh, daddy.com, as I mentioned is our hub. And then please also visit all of our social across Facebook, Instagram. We're at daddy Saturday at D daddy Saturday.

You'll see the DS logo and you can't mess this. Awesome. Justin, I wanna give you the last word here. Uh, like you touched on a little bit before, uh, one of the huge fears that those of us who come from broken homes have, is repeating the dysfunction that we experience. We, we don't want that. We're afraid of it, but statistically, we often fall into that.

Like we end up getting divorced. We end up creating the same dysfunction that we experience in our own families. And so. What would you say to someone who just feels very broken right now, a young person? Uh, what encouragement would you give them to just get unstuck in life to start thriving, to just build a better life than they had in the future or in the past?

I'm sorry. Well, I would say this there's this there's this scientific process called epigenetics. And it's the fact that far more was passed on than just your DNA. It was the environment, the experiences of your parents, even your grandparents, and it's all passed. And so you've got that inside of you.

Think of it like an iceberg. And most of us are only willing to look at the tip of the iceberg. And many, very few of us are willing to go down deep and really dig into that and pull that out on the surface and deal with it because the problem is if you don't deal with it, it's still there. Whether you wanna acknowledge it or not.

So my encouragement would be, we've all got that iceberg inside of us. Again, regardless of our circumstances, it's there. The father wound's going to be. So you have to pull it out. You have to deal with it. You have to look at what caused it, what you would do differently, how you would do that and start to analyze the process.

And when you pull it out, as painful as it can be the necessary process and outta that pain can come, purpose can come potential. And what I would say is that every single one of you listening as a potential dad as a current dad, um, future dad, whatever your circumstance. You have the potential to be an incredible dad to your kids.

It's inside of you again, regardless of your circumstances, it's just up to you pull it out, own it. And if we can be a small help in that process, we're glad to do it.

One big takeaway from me. You don't have to be perfect. I mentioned that a couple times in the show, cause I think it's so important to remember cuz I think dads and moms too, parents in general, feel this pressure to get it all right. To be perfect, to not mess up. And Justin's really giving us permission saying no, you're gonna mess up.

It's gonna happen. Be prepared for it. In fact, expect it. Just be ready to learn and. From your mistakes. And I think that's so, so helpful and it takes so much pressure off so that you can just focus on becoming a better, stronger parent, a better, stronger father than just maybe beating yourself up for failing in a way that you thought you were supposed to be perfect.

And I think there's a lot of. Pride there as well. When we feel that now we can't mess up. We have to be perfect. We have to be that superhero for our kids and never make any mistakes. And so it's refreshing to hear like, no, you don't need to be perfect. And in order to become better though, uh, we need to rely on other people, like Justin said, like, like we need to check our egos.

We need to rely on other people. Not think that we can do it all alone. And make use of the resources like Justin's nonprofit and the things that he mentioned, the book and his podcasts, and just make use of those resources so that we can become the father that we wish we had. And so one question for you to kind of chew on is what did you learn about fatherhood from your own dad?

And maybe you had a great father and you learned a lot of great things from your dad, but maybe you didn't and you learned a lot of unhealthy things. Maybe you learned lies about fatherhood and even. Masculinity. And so give that some thought, like, what did you learn from your dad when it comes to fatherhood?

And if you wanna, you can write those out. You can put 'em into words, you can talk to someone about it, but definitely give this some thought, think about it. I think this is an important step and becoming, uh, the father that you wish you had. And so give this some thought, give this some. If you want more from Justin, I invite you to buy his book.

Daddy's Saturday. Uh, you can click on the link in the show notes to buy the book or just buy it from wherever you buy books. Like Amazon, the resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 45. Thank you guys so much for listening. We do this for you, and if it's been useful, I invite you to subscribe and to.

This podcast and always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.

I Knew Finally That Somehow My Life Was Worth Living

18 minute read

This story was written by an anonymous contributor at 40 years old. His parents divorced when he was 9 years old. He gave permission for his story to be shared.

HIS STORY

I don't know. I still don't know.

In 1950, the United States of America entered the Korean War. A newlywed Catholic man in the city of New York joined the Army, left his new bride, fought in the Far East, won a Purple Heart, and returned home with a bad case of shell shock and mysterious brain cancer.

His family opposed the marriage for ethnic reasons and so disowned him. He fathered three daughters with his bride, but their stormy marriage ended when he succumbed to brain cancer barely two years after the birth of the youngest daughter.

The widow embraced a tyrannical and acrimonious parenting style. That youngest daughter went to a university on the other side of the state, earned a bachelor's degree, and met a young man. He came from a local intact Catholic family with several brothers, possibly with some alcohol problems, served for four years in the Navy, returned home, and met this young woman.

After a few years of various activities, they moved to Virginia Beach, where he started a job as a civilian mechanic for the Navy. They deluded the state into registering them as married but apparently never celebrated a sacramental wedding. When an unusual series of severe snowstorms struck the city, she conceived me, their firstborn son.

I thought that I had an idyllic childhood with two loving parents and three wonderful younger siblings. My mother took care of us children at home while my father worked as a civilian for the Navy. We went to Mass at the local Catholic parish every Sunday. In time, I attended the local public school and earned good grades.

They seemingly had no friends and almost never engaged in any social encounters insofar as I saw. I expected to emulate my father when I attained adulthood, and he encouraged and affirmed my chosen career path, which ultimately I followed, even though it didn't match his career.

Each summer, our family spent a week or so in the city of New York, visiting my maternal grandmother, her parents, and sometimes a few of her relatives. We never visited the family of my father, and they rarely conversed on the telephone or sent letters or packages. Apparently, my mother thought that a married man should have no contact with his family of origin.

As the United States of America achieved victory in the Cold War, the Navy began to prepare for major downsizing. My father wanted to continue his career with the Navy, so he occasionally took evening, overnight, and weekend shifts instead of or in addition to his normal daytime shift and trained for several alternative positions.

This change clearly upset my mother. I noticed an increase in acrimony, but I heard that parents sometimes disagree, so I didn't recognize any major problems. The idea of parents separating for a reason other than military deployment or death simply never entered my mind. Regardless, my father increased his alcohol consumption and on rare occasions engaged in mildly regretful behavior while drunk. Meanwhile, my newborn youngest sister experienced a series of worrisome health problems, beginning with a somewhat low birth weight, which my mother later attributed to stress from marital discord.

One summer, we went to the city of New York as usual, but my father stayed in Virginia Beach and worked at his job and repaired the house. Our vacation lasted not for one or two weeks but for four or five weeks. When we returned, I noticed that he hadn't mowed the lawn. After our return, my father mowed the lawn, and normal family life seemingly resumed. But a week or two later, he loaded his car with a rather large quantity of clothes and some other things and departed. He never returned.

What happened? I didn't know. I thought of perhaps a business trip or a sea voyage with the Navy or even in the merchant marine. But the hours turned to days and weeks and months and years. Strangely, cash began to appear in our mailbox on Navy paydays. My father must have sent it, so he probably went not far away, but confusingly, he didn't see, speak, or play with me anymore. And my mother used appalling language to describe him in his absence. Her spoken rationale for the separation made no sense in the context of my knowledge of my father. But one oft-repeated reason struck me: My father hated me and wanted to do terrible things to me

HOW THE DIVORCE MADE HIM FEEL

Initially, little in my life changed with the absence of my father. We continued to live in the same house, to engage in the same type of activities, and to attend Mass every Sunday. I progressed from elementary school to middle school and knew nobody in my new class. I vented my anger at the alleged hatred of my father mostly through yelling despicable insults at the wind.

But as the firstborn son, I carried an obligation to my younger siblings to defend the honor and reputation of my family. Within the first year, I determined to conceal the shameful separation and never mentioned it to anybody. I never invited anyone to my house, and when I received invitations to social engagements, I always declined, lest I incur an obligation to reciprocate and thus risk revealing the absence of my father.

As a consequence, I developed few friendships in middle school, none of them close. If pressed for information about my father, I generally responded that he works on ships and that they go out to sea a lot and that he doesn't say much about his job.

The departure of my father from the family home left me, a nine-year-old boy, as the man of the house, implicitly responsible for providing my mother with the technical assistance, financial resources, muscle power, and emotional support to run a household.

In this role, I barely tried and failed miserably. I perhaps wanted to mow the lawn, but I couldn't even find a way into the garage to access the lawnmower, which as a child I wasn't allowed to use. I knew not how to fulfill this necessary role. Instead, after bumbling for a year or two, my mother developed a relationship with another man.

This new man took an interest in my family and genuinely tried to support me and better our lives whenever he experienced sobriety. Unfortunately, he often drank alcohol to excess and sometimes erupted in a drunken rage. Nevertheless, he capably fulfilled the duties of "man of the house" at which I failed completely. I still dreaded this new relationship because it both destroyed any potential for restoration of my father and brought the outbursts of alcohol-fueled rage into the house. But I could not deny my relative inadequacies as man of the house. Nor did I appreciate the trauma to come.

Increasingly, meanwhile, I began to wonder why my father suddenly hated me enough to abandon the family. In reality, he neither hated me nor tried to destroy my life nor wished me ill. But I had no means of knowing that my father didn't hate me. I ultimately concluded that I did something so reprehensible, so horrific, so despicable--something that no other child ever did--that it caused my previously loving father to hate me irreversibly. But what? I tried to remember but failed to identify the deed of mine that caused this separation.

Some time amid this situation, the state courts finalized the legal divorce between my father and my mother. The settlement made minor changes to the status quo but unleashed the opportunity for a new period of dysfunction and chaos. It began with cohabitation and fornication and culminated in another fake marriage. They deceived the state into accepting them as married but never received the sacrament of holy matrimony (nor any Catholic marriage preparation, however inadequate).

The drunken fits of rage gradually increased in frequency and intensity with the passing of the years, and this new man frequently insulted my mother, my siblings, and me even before they deluded the state into considering them married. Although he acted quite pleasantly and helpfully when sober, that sobriety came progressively less frequently. When drunk, his behavior varied from fits of rage to repeating verbal insults to urinating around the house to snoring semi-consciousness.

For all of these problems, I increasingly blamed myself. I accepted his insults as factual truths about my nature, my character, my identity. I thought that if only I didn't exist, then my family would revert to a peaceful, healthy state. I blamed myself for the departure of my father, for this abusive relationship, for his drunkenness, for the fits of rage, fights, and discord. I began to see this man as an innocent victim, as a tool with which I tortured my family. But I was too stupid, too malicious, too evil-hearted, too oblivious to identify and to reform the attitudes and the behaviors of mine that caused all of these problems.

Meanwhile, in middle school, I made little effort, and my grades plunged. I misbehaved frequently but rarely got caught. With the chaos at home, I continued to avoid friendships. In time, I passed from middle school to high school. I aspired to win admittance to a university to pursue my chosen career, and my mother and my father long earlier endorsed this goal.

Moreover, the prospect of traveling far away to attend a university represented an honorable escape from a profoundly unhappy home life, one that my younger siblings ultimately followed. Therefore, I began to put more effort into increasingly rigorous academic schoolwork and enrolled in several extracurricular activities.

But I still tried to avoid developing friendships, lest people come to know my shameful and awful family situation, or, worse, my malign influence ruin their lives too. Meanwhile, my prayer life utterly collapsed except continued attendance at Mass on Sunday (which I valued principally as an hour-long escape from almost incessant conflict) and at the mandatory but almost worthless religious education classes, which culminated in the sacrament of confirmation.

The situation at home deteriorated into unpredictable episodes of property destruction and criminal violence about which I never told anyone. I used school as a refuge from the chaos at home and trained myself to think only about the academic course material and not about the home situation while at school or on school buses.

At home, I tried to study but internalized the loud insults and assumed blame for the violence. The man of the house often dredged up minor incidents from years earlier and used them to taunt me for weeks on end. I erected numerous barriers in my mind to keep the problems as secret as possible. I tried to minimize the requests of my family. I imposed painful punishments on myself for causing the wrath and for failing to stop it.

Despite my improving grades, I still sometimes slipped back into those bad middle-school habits and fell short. I wanted to leave the family on honorable terms that set a good example for my younger siblings and so end the drunkenness and trauma.

Meanwhile, my already gravely awful self-image darkened still more. I tried to avoid social relationships in general, but once I reached the eleventh grade, numerous students saw me as a classmate in several classes during the school day and in extracurricular activities. Hence, peers began to capture me into their social networks, even if only for potential help with unrelentingly rigorous school classes and activities.

Insofar as I knew, everyone in the high school (or more properly, those who took advanced classes in preparation for university admission) except my sister and I all came from intact, functional, loving families. I began to think that my malevolence extended well beyond my family throughout the community like a sort of malicious, quasi-spiritual, almost demonic Rube Goldberg machine that I alone triggered with my misdeeds. And I couldn't find a way to stop triggering it. Meanwhile, in my worldview, everyone else in my life simply, effortlessly, and unfailingly avoided all the intuitively obvious misbehavior with which I continually drove my family into ever deeper dysfunction. Of course, this self-perception was utterly insane.

With the maelstrom at home continuing to intensify still further, I tried to reveal nothing and continued to decline all invitations for social interaction and even study groups outside the school day. Even so, people noticed something not right, including deep-seated pessimism and low self-esteem.

School teachers occasionally questioned me discreetly about my home situation, but I invariably identified myself as the only problem. I feared that if people learned the truth, then the state would take my siblings away to my father, who would torture, abuse, and abandon them as another manifestation of my malignity. Even if that didn't happen, I wanted people to think highly of my sister and my younger siblings.

Nevertheless, somehow, despite my concealment and aloofness, I managed to fall very unintentionally into a particularly helpful support network. My classmates treated me kindly and tried to encourage me, but I began to suspect (almost certainly wrongly) that they did so not from charity or amity but from fear of my malevolence. I don't know what my classmates knew, thought, or said of me in my absence.

Nowadays, I can see the hand of God working through the situation for my benefit. One day as a struggled through classes and contemplated the premature end of my wretched life, I turned, exasperated, to a particularly widely admired girl, who somehow made acing schoolwork appear easy. She smiled at me and softly spoke the best advice I have ever received in a single word: "Pray."

I should have followed, but I came to perceive the attitude of the man of the house on a drunken rampage as a mere shadow of the wrath with which God the Father intended to punish me eternally for my sins in causing all the trouble in my family and into the wider community. And I thought that that man forgave more easily than God. I feared that even attempting to pray only would provoke more intense wrath from God. Obviously, I suffered from horribly warped misconceptions and denial of the mercy of God.

I can relate still more horrible episodes from those years. But this essay has gone too long. The city police finally removed the man of the house after another drunken violent rampage, and he faced trial for felony assault charges. This outcome confused me as I saw him as an innocent victim, a tool of my malevolence, akin to an ax in the hand of an ax murderer, an automaton without sufficient capacity to choose less harmful actions.

Although we expected him to return with even worse violence, he only engaged in occasional harassment, and I never saw him again outside the courtroom. Although he held a good job, his alcohol consumption, expensive toys, and property destruction made him a net drain on household finances. My younger brother assumed the role of man of the house, keeping the cars in good repair, mowing the lawn, fixing broken stuff, and warding away a series of suitors. A divorce ultimately followed sometime later but changed nothing.

Despite my manifest insanity and with tremendous unsolicited encouragement from that peer support network, I applied to a prestigious university in the Northeast. The university accepted me, much to my surprise, and my high school graduated me, so I went to higher education with even a partial scholarship.

HOW HIS PARENTS' DIVORCE HAS IMPACTED HIM

I arrived on a university campus where I knew nobody. I intended to try to earn a degree and if possible to learn how to behave as a professional man. Although I suspected insurmountable academic challenges, the rigorous high school curriculum prepared me well.

Many years of intentional social avoidance, however, left me with very poor social skills. A deep depression haunted and engulfed me, and I often struggled to summon the willpower to complete the most basic tasks. The intense moral darkness that characterizes the American university scene eroded my already warped sense of right and wrong. I mistook sophistries for sapience and tried in vain to find the logical coherence of the incoherent nonsense of the day.

I concluded that I was simply too stupid for the university scene despite grades high enough to earn a bachelor's and master's degree. Hearing of the concept of "microaggressions," small, often unconscious actions with supposedly enormous potential to degrade entire cultures, made me fear participating in society, lest my already manifest malign influence ruin more and more lives.

And in a notorious "party school" culture, complete with alcohol abuse and widespread sexual improprieties, misery enveloped the lives of many students (and failed ex-students who continued to live in the community). My goal of training myself to act as an upright young American professional found no obvious solution. I frequently planned ways of ending my earthly life and proceeding immediately to Hell, which, I imagined, would bring relief and healing and joy to everyone around me. I just wanted to take as few other, innocent souls with me to Hell as possible.

Because I arrived from a household that always went to Mass on Sunday (and probably unconsciously because my father unfailingly took me to Mass on Sunday when he still lived with me), I mostly continued that habit on campus. Early in my university years, I somehow by the grace of God got sucked into the small Catholic community on this enormous campus.

At first, I went principally because it offered free food close to my dormitory. The food stopped, but for some not articulable reason, I kept going anyway. When I withdrew and ceased attending these functions, some fellow students noticed me on campus and goaded me into returning. These messages that I heard resonated in my heart and in my mind but contrasted sharply with almost every other influence in my life. I thought that I was just too stupid to understand the logical coherence between the message of the Church and that of the larger university community.

And I had no parents, no father to whom I might turn for help or even just emotional support in navigating this strange world. The upbeat, emotionally charged events managed if only briefly and partially to interrupt the thick fog of severe depression and constant negative self-talk. Somehow through those long and severely awful years, Jesus Christ through His Church gave me the will to live. But over many years, I adopted the actions and attitudes of the culture and a lifestyle of constant grave sin. And it wasn't just the despair and depression.

One April evening of my final year on that campus, I entered a large but otherwise empty university classroom, where I encountered a Catholic priest. He immediately began the sacrament of confession, "Father, forgive you, for you have sinned. It has been ___ months since your last confession. But that was not a good confession. In fact, you've never made a good confession." I did nothing to prepare for this encounter, but he was right. I couldn't identify sin in my life.

After so many years of university indoctrination, I wondered whether twitching the wrong way in an elevator was a grave sin, whereas killing a baby was a good deed. I never had a father to teach me manly virtue. I didn't know how to behave. I certainly didn't want to repeat any role in the trauma the unfolded over several years in my home, and I thought that God couldn't forgive me until I identified the sins of mine that precipitated the problems and restored the happy marriage of my parents, all without His divine assistance. And even if I managed that impossible task, then God probably would decline mercy and send me to Hell eternally anyway. Or so I erroneously thought.

Instead of requiring me to list my sins, however, the priest listed and described my sins for me; I said only, "Yes, Father," when asked to assent. He then led me through a primitive act of contrition. At this time, I fully expected to hear him berate me as irredeemable, but he instead pronounced the words of absolution.

He then reiterated and reemphasized that because God forgave me my sins, if I die immediately through no fault of my own, then I would go ultimately and eternally to Heaven. So for once, Jesus Christ, my God in the person of His priest gave me hope, set me free, and directed me on the right Way through this miraculous encounter. And although the deep depression quickly resumed, the suicidal impulses never returned. I knew then finally that somehow my life was worth living.

I ultimately graduated, left the world of academia, moved halfway across the country, and somehow managed to find a job. I tried to stop those habits of sin that I confessed. I joined a Catholic parish and began the practice of regular confession. I tried to follow a severely disciplined lifestyle. Initially, I expected to fail at my job, and I still feared that my malign influence would ruin the lives of my colleagues and particularly might destroy their marriages.

But as the months and years unfolded, events realized non of my fears. I kept my job, my colleagues did not turn into abusive alcoholics, their marriages didn't fail, and my fears slowly began to subside. With still no real social life, I began to seek answers to the deeper questions of life, obvious answers that everyone else already knew intuitively (or at least they so understood in the era of Christendom). Eventually, I quit the self-harm, and the depression gradually began to lift.

But even as I accepted the willingness of God to forgive my own sins, I still blamed myself entirely for the divorce of my parents and for the abusive relationship that followed. And as much as I wanted to marry, I had no positive male role models to follow. I only slowly after several years began to build a limited social life. I imagined that a married man confines his human interactions to the family of his wife and those minimally necessary to provide for his wife and children, as I observed as a small boy. Anything more, I presumed, constituted infidelity.

In conformity with this supposed societal expectation, I avoided conversations with persons whom I knew or suspected to be married. Of course, that meant that I had no even observational experience of healthy family life. And I never even dated a woman. In fact, I still haven't gone on a first date yet, even at my advanced age.

Eventually, more than twenty years after the separation, I found a telephone number for my father on the Internet and reestablished contact. I quickly found that he doesn't hate me, doesn't wish ill upon me, and doesn't even blame me for the separation, which, I now appreciate if only slightly, hurts him terribly.

I began to question whether perhaps I wasn't entirely and exclusively at fault. Then I wondered whether forgiving my parents for their separation necessarily entailed assuming the blame and guilt. I still struggle with these concepts. And I wish that I had performed better as an older brother to my siblings. Living a thousand miles away prevents my mother from running my life and interfering with my finances. But it also separates me from my sister and her family and from my brother and his family and from my youngest sister, also still unmarried. Hearing my mother repeatedly propose divorce to my siblings pains me greatly, and I regularly inveigh against the wretched idea.

And although I began to build a somewhat normal social life, I still avoid revealing the true state of my parents' marital status. I don't really have any close friendships. I try to avoid imposing burdens on people, asking for favors, or interfering in their private lives. I still struggle with negative self-talk, especially regarding interpersonal relationships. Nevertheless, I have one particular rather outgoing married friend, who has shared with me the joys of family life as he rears and educates his many children. I still look at faithful husbands with awe, and I struggle to attain to the maturity that they displayed even as teenagers. I recognize the great good of fatherhood. But I doubt that I ever will attain to the qualities and character necessary to start a family. Or even try.

ADVICE TO SOMEONE WHOSE PARENTS HAVE DIVORCED OR SEPARATED

This wound doesn't heal. It only gets worse with time. This is your cross, so take up your cross and follow Jesus. You cannot control your parents and their relationship (really, you can't), but you still can attempt to minimize and control secondary wounds. But how?

First, get to confession. Even if you single-handedly caused the divorce (and assuredly you did not, but even then), then God wants to forgive you and awaits you in the confessional. Moreover, confessions are secret, and Saint Jan Nepomucký even died as a martyr in defense of the seal of the confessional. So don't worry about your parents or anyone else learning what you confess. (You may try to schedule your confession so that your parents aren't nearby and cannot overhear, but rest assured, Father will not tell them.)

If you cannot make the confession schedule, call the parish office or just visit when you can and dare to inquire. Try to find an "examination of conscience" sheet to help you to prepare. If you cannot find one or do not understand the vocabulary, do not fear. Just enter the confessional and say, "Father, forgive me, for I have sinned. It has been (number) months since my last confession. I don't know what behavior is and is not sinful, so please help me."

If your parish doesn't help, then try a different parish; you can confess at any parish or anywhere else you may encounter a Catholic priest. And Church law requires confession at least once per year and whenever conscious of mortal sin, but many bishops encourage confession at least monthly, even weekly. It is perfectly okay to decline meeting your parents' new partners. It is okay to not attend family events for a bit if it will hurt you. You need to focus on your healing, not keeping your parents happy. Seek Christ, even when it is so hard and even if you are angry.

Second, pray every day, prayer brings you in communion with God. If your situation allows, pray in silence before the Blessed Sacrament exposed in adoration. A former youth minister at my current parish recommended an hour of contemplative prayer every day in addition to daily Mass and more. You may find that schedule too daunting or impossible to sustain in the face of your other obligations. But pray every day at least ten or twenty minutes.

Try to find a quiet space. If you cannot get to the local parish church, then pray in your room or in your backyard, stop at a local park en route to or from school, pray on the school bus, or wherever else you can find to make your sacred space. Saint Karol Józef Wojtyła, an orphaned slave of the Nazis, prayed daily at a cemetery in Kraków, where he learned of Saint Faustina Kowalska and the devotion to Divine Mercy. Just as that now-famous icon says, trust in Jesus. He will deliver you in the end, and he can assist you even now.

Third, get to church every Sunday and on any other day when the opportunity arises. If you have access to the Internet, a parish bulletin, or another resource, then try to follow the daily Mass readings. If you can go to Mass then go thither, regardless of how abandoned or awful or unlovable you may perceive yourself. Never miss church on Sunday.

God sent you a message in His Word, Jesus Christ, and in his word, the Scriptures. You have only to absorb the message. And remember that God did not forsake you; he never forsook His own Son. When on Good Friday, Jesus cries, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?," He in is excruciating agony does not despair of the presence of His Father; rather, He invites those within the range of His voice to join him in praying Psalm 22, He does not finish the psalm vocally because those in earshot already know the psalm because of their familiarity with this poetry of King David and also because he lacks the oxygen to continue; the crucified die of asphyxiation as they gradually lose the strength necessary to inhale. But Psalm 22 ends with a prediction of resurrection. You too should learn the Scriptures. And you too will flourish one day in a way that seems unimaginable now.

This isn't easy, and your life always will be complicated, confusing, and difficult. But sustain hope and persevere to the end and you will triumph, even if you cannot foresee any such possibility. Remember, God loves you.

HOW TO HELP YOUNG PEOPLE FROM DIVORCED OR SEPARATED FAMILIES

Stop divorce before it happens. Help people to understand the sacramental and indissoluble nature of holy matrimony. Try to identify, assist, and coach troubled couples. Teach people the laws of nature and of nature's God, recognition of which almost has vanished in our society. Start early, even before serious dating begins.

Outlaw pornography. Restore the Comstock act and enforce it.

Remember that these teens and young adults exist on every part of the socioeconomic scale in America today. Although dysfunctional households pervade the underclass, many aspiring young professionals and housewives suffer from dysfunctional families of origin. And some of us never publicly acknowledge it because we don't want to bring further discredit upon ourselves and our families.

Tragically, statistics now show that most American teenagers lack parents and survive in dysfunctional homes or otherwise lack stable home life. They need examples of healthy marriages, and with the suppression of good history and classical literature and moral instruction from public education, they also may need an introduction to the concept of genuine marital life.

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Four Ways to Work on Trust in Dating Relationships

4 minute read

How many times have you checked your food at a restaurant for poison?

Probably none. 

Would it be pretty easy for a chef to sneak something undesirable into your meal?

Most likely, yes it would.

So how come we all don’t examine our food closely upon its arrival and do some serious investigating before tucking in?

We trust.

If we didn’t trust, life would be much more difficult. What about that bridge you have to cross to get to work? Are you sure the engineers knew what the heck they were doing when they built it all those years ago? After all, bridges have collapsed before.

Think of the directions on your phone you so readily obey, what if the voice telling you to turn left is just as lost as you are?

Textbooks, recipes, reviews on Amazon...day in and day out, our normal, life things require us to trust.

This is especially true in relationships.

However, if you are from a broken family, it is very likely that you struggle with trust a little more than the average person.

An unfortunate consequence of our parents’ separation is that something that ought to have lasted forever, something that we should have always been able to count on, something that we trusted completely—let us down. Hard.

This makes navigating the already dicey world of dating less exciting and more agitating. 

I certainly found this to be true in my own relationships as I began to date in my early twenties. I was constantly on edge, looking for the red flag, wondering when the ball would drop, and interpreting the smallest gesture or word to mean something catastrophic. I became angry easily and lived in suspicion. 

I knew they were going to leave, it was just a matter of time. And I was not going to be caught off guard. Not again.

The issue with dating is that you are right when you say it may not last forever. That is how dating works. There is a risk. Just like eating the food that could be poisoned or taking directions from a machine...it could end poorly. 

Of course, the possibility of a relationship ending is much more proximate than a plotting chef.

So, how do people like us handle the uncertainty of how things will go in a relationship, while also giving the other person the benefit of the doubt?

Great question.

1. Know what you are looking for in a future spouse. 

   And by that, I don’t mean how tall you want them to be or what color eyes you think they should have. Think about the non-negotiables: how do you want them to treat you? Be specific. Are they mature? Responsible? Do they strive to be a better person? Do they have goals in life and intentions with dating? Can they appreciate the things you care about? Do they respect you and your world views? Sharing the same religion can be especially important as a lot of important values stem from that.

   I found it helpful to make a list. That way, the next time someone you might be interested in comes around, you can compare them (over time) to the list you made when you weren’t staring deeply into his or her beautiful blue eyes.

2. Have trusted advisors

   This also helped me out a whole lot while I was navigating the murky waters of relationships and dating. I found myself constantly interpreting things negatively and then catastrophizing as a result. Thankfully, I had a handful of people whose judgment I trusted that I could reach out to when I couldn’t tell fear from facts. 

   A peer can be helpful, but I would also recommend someone a little farther down the road in this journey, too. For me, it was my older brother, my mom, and sometimes my therapist. You want to have people who have been there done that, and can spot actual problems with their 20/20 hindsight perspective. Your point of view might be a little blurred with the excitement of a new relationship, and/or jaded because of your past. So give yourself some grace and don’t be afraid to ask for help.

3. Know that you are going to be okay, even if it’s not okay.

   This one was extremely difficult for me. I clung to my partners and stayed in relationships longer than I should have because I was afraid of the pain that I knew would inevitably accompany a breakup. In short, I made things a lot harder than they needed to be. 

   It did hurt. The breakups were awful, there’s no way around it. But I survived. And looking back, I’m so glad those breakups took place. Like extremely. Sometimes the aversion to suffering ends up just causing more suffering. 

   When you’re starting out a new relationship, you have to take solace in the reality that even if things don’t work out—you are going to be okay. You really are. And furthermore, this isn’t it. If this person isn’t your forever, it doesn’t mean you are unlovable, it doesn’t mean there isn’t someone out there for you, it just means this person wasn’t that person. And that is okay. 
   There is something so freeing about knowing that you really are going to be okay if things don’t work out with this particular person at this particular time. It allows you the space to truly discern if they are right for you and to enjoy the process of learning and loving another human being.

4. Actively work on healing your wounds.

   As a child from a broken home, you will struggle with relationships. It’s a hard fact to face, but the sooner you do, the sooner you can take steps to make this hurdle easier on yourself. 

   When I realized how much anxiety dating was causing me, I turned to therapy to help me with something I felt was too big to handle on my own. I can’t emphasize enough how much these sessions helped me. My therapist was able to question some underlying beliefs that my parents’ divorce had convinced me of, such as: men can’t be trusted. Love doesn’t last. I am undesirable/unlovable...it was hard work and painful at times, but well worth it.
   There are also other ways you can begin to work toward healing:

• Try this exercise.

• Start a journal.

• Find some support with our private online community.

• Start growing in your understanding of love and relationships.

• Set goals for yourself: spiritually, intellectually, physically and emotionally--where do you want to be? What do you want to accomplish? 

It takes time. And I mean a lot of time and effort to work through some of the wounds that come from our parents’ divorce. Take one small step at a time. Be gentle with yourself and don’t give up. Dating can be really scary for people like us, but for those of us who are called to marriage and family life, it is a risk that is 100% worth it. And it doesn’t have to be a super painful process. See it as an opportunity to grow in trust and as a person so that you will be well-equipped to take on the challenges that come with the next season of life.

Looking back, I wish I had trusted the process a little more and stressed a lot less. So learn from my mistakes, take a deep breath, and relax.

#044: Practical Tips for Becoming a Great Parent | Mike & Alicia Hernon

For most people, becoming a parent is beautiful but also scary and intimidating. But that is especially true for people from broken families. Often, we didn’t see a great example of parenthood, so we feel lost and unsure how to do it ourselves.

In this episode, we talk parenting with Mike and Alicia Hernon, the parents of 10 kids and leaders of a ministry for parents called The Messy Family Project. We discuss:

• How his parents’ divorce affected Mike as a husband and father

• Fears he had about becoming a father, how he overcame them, and how you can too

• Should you put your marriage first or your children first and why is that important?

• Lots of practical parenting tips, especially for new parents

• Encouragement if you feel like you don’t have what it takes to be a good parent because you never experienced it in your family 

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Transcript produced by artificial intelligence. Please pardon any errors!

For most people becoming a parent is a really beautiful thing, but it's also scary. It's also intimidating and that's especially true for those of us who come from broken families. So often we didn't see a great example from maybe one or both parents of what it looks like. To be a great parent. So when it's our turn, we feel a bit lost.

Like we don't know how to do it. We don't know how to be a great parent. And we lack the confidence that we need to be a great parent. And so today we talk parenting with a married couple who has 10 kids. You heard that, right? They have 10 children. They also run a non-profit for parents called the messy family project.

The husband Mike, he comes from a broken home. And so he shares his story and how alcoholism really played a big role in the breakdown of his family's parents' marriage, which so many of us deal with and where you're gonna get out of this episode, by listening to it, you're gonna hear us discuss how his parents divorce affected him as a father and a husband.

He shares some of the fears that he had as a father and how he overcame them. Lots of good lessons that we can take and use. We discussed the question. Should you put your marriage. Or should you put your kids first? And we talk about why that's a super important question to ask and my guests get pretty vulnerable and they share how they've failed as parents and what they've learned because of it.

So we can learn from them and avoid making those mistakes in the first place. They also give a lot of great practical tips on parenting, especially for new parents out there. And finally, anyone out there who feels like they don't have what it takes to, to be a great parent, because maybe you didn't see that growing up.

They give a lot of encouragement and some advice on how to deal with that and how to overcome then how to be a great parent, very refreshing conversation, full of hope, lot a practical advice. And even if you're not a parent now, but you hope to be one day, you're gonna get a lot out of the episode. So keep listening.

Welcome to the restored podcast, helping you heal and grow from the trauma of your parents' divorce separation of broken marriage. So you can feel whole again. I'm your host, Joey Pelli. Thank you so much for listening. This is episode 44 and today I speak with Mike and Alicia Hernan. They're the proud parents of 10 children ranging from eight to 25 years old.

They also lead the messy family project, a ministry seeking to encourage and empower parents in building vibrant families. Their podcast has grown to over 10,000 families listening every month. It's probably even more than that at this point. And they've been guests on shows such as the Catholic TV network EWTN.

Mike's actually hosted shows on EEW, TN, and he's appeared on Fox news, CNN and NPR, their children. They. Are the greatest joy in life. And as a family, they love to play music theater, playing board games and watching the Philadelphia Eagles, which my wife will be happy about. Cuz she is a Philly girl. She loves the Eagles and Mike and Alicia say that their home is always loud.

It's active and it's busy. And on a person I have to say they, they have a really beautiful family. I've been to their home. I met Alicia years ago after college, I went to Italy to teach English for two months. I lived over there for two months in Italy, just awesome experience. But in order to get that job, I had to submit a video of me teaching kids in English lesson.

And so Mike and Alicia were super generous and allowing me to work with their kids, uh, to make that video, uh, it was successful. I did get the job and it was just an awesome experience. So I have interacted with, with Mike Alicia and their kids and I just have. Beautiful family. They're everything that you would want them to be.

And they've built a really beautiful family, a really beautiful marriage. And so I'm excited for you to learn from them about parenting. You'll hear in the show also that Bridget and I, my wife are expecting a baby girl. So this is actually our second pregnancy. Our first pregnancy, we, we had a miscarriage was really difficult thing to go through, but now, uh, we've had a successful pregnancy.

Everything's looking good so far. So in two months, our baby girl will arrive. We cannot wait to meet her. I can't wait to meet her. Uh, it is super exciting. It's beautiful, but it's also kind of intimidating. This is a new chapter for us is gonna bring new challenges, but also, uh, you know, new joy, new meaning into our lives.

So please, uh, keep us in your prayers and I'm super excited to learn from this conversation with you because I'm a new dad. And so here's my conversation with Mike and Alicia,

Mike and Alicia. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Uh, it is great to be with you, Joey. Thanks for inviting us. Yeah. Thanks for having us, Mike. I, I didn't know that you were a child of divorce. I had, I knew about you cuz I went to Franciscan and uh, we have mutual friends, but I didn't know that you came from a broken home and apparently we both spoke at, uh, the same event recently.

And so I wanna. Start there. Uh, Mike, I'd love for, if you could just give us a summary of your story. I'm sure we could do a whole podcast episode on, on your story, but yeah. Give us a little bit of a background. Sure. Um, so I, I was raised in, um, in New York and I came from a, um, you know, my, my father was an, um, alcoholic, a recovering alcoholic and my parents got divorced, separated first.

And then, uh, ultimately got divorced, uh, in my early teen years. Uh, right. As I was getting into high school, I was thinking, gonna say New York, Irish Catholic alcoholic. Right. How many? That's just like every, so many people's story. Right. And, and I, for me, it was, um, you know, it was, it was a, a lull, uh, after my parents' divorce.

Yeah. Uh, there was some quiet in the home, but there was a lot of carnage, you know, I was always looking for, uh, peace. I think I was looking for some kind of escape and, and, uh, I actually started down the same path as my dad, uh, and early teen, I began drinking, but it wasn't until I, uh, kind of played my life forward for whatever reason, as a, as a teenager and saw I was heading down a path of destruction, it was grace and it was, yeah.

And I, I have to say, I think it was my mom's prayers, uh, that, that kind of shook me, uh, and woke me up to the fact that I was a mess and my life was a mess and through counseling, through prayer and, uh, just some good, good friends, uh, was able to really, you know, deal with that over, over the next number of years.

But for me, it was, it was a moment where I remember looking back and saying, this isn't what marriage is about. And this isn't what family life is about. Yeah. And I, I was looking from a very early teen years saying, um, what, what is marriage? What is family? And looking for models because I was, uh, You know, I, I, I, I knew what I had.

Wasn't the, the model, the perfect model. And I wanted something better. Mm-hmm so, anyway, I, I, I could go on, we actually did it recently, just did a whole podcast, um, on this, but I, I, um, I look back at that moment of my parents' divorce and although it had so much loss and so much pain and so much wounds that came from it, um, it also was a pivotal moment where I think we're doing.

Uh, you know, with our, our marriage and family, uh, effort that we're doing right now, the organization that we're leading I think was really birthed through that. And so out of my struggle and out of our, my woundedness, uh, it has, has changed and affected me as a husband and as a father, and has really brought me to a place where my faith is, is alive and real for me, because I, I needed something beyond my own ability to fix if you will.

And even though obviously this is Mike's story, not my story, but in walking with him these past 30 years, 30 plus years, you know, through the divorce, cuz he, his parents were divorced when he was 16. And then we met when he was 18. I think it's just important to note that there's several moments of conversion, you know, it's not like, oh, you know, in Mike's whole story, it's like the divorce was a pivotal moment.

And then there. Other pivotal moments after that, where God continued that process of healing and conversion, you know, it's not like we're not healed all at once. It's. You know, God gives us what we can handle at that time. And that's part of the beauty of walk, you know, the journey, the journey. It's not just like, oh great.

Now everything's perfect. I've arrived. You know, I thought it was a one and done thing. I didn't, would it be nice? It was like that, but sorry. No, absolutely. That, that was one of the unique things about this trauma is that it's like, in a way it's like an unending trauma, because most of the time our families don't come back together.

So it's so challenging, but Mike, I relate so much to what you said about just wanting the opposite of what you saw in your family. And I think that's so true for so many people listening right now. Like we desire something better. We don't want to go down the same path that our, our parents went down. We don't wanna repeat the mistakes that we saw in our family dis dysfunction there.

And so it's beautiful to see, like, you guys are so inspiring to see the beautiful family in the marriage that you've built and I'm sure. Yeah. It's been a journey and it's been I'm sure struggles along the way, but I'm curious. Mike specifically looking at you as a husband and a father. Uh, how have you seen your parents divorce affect you in those roles?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the reality is, is that there are probably still ways that I'm still uncovering and I think it's true. It's true for me. And it probably is true for others that I, I, I played forward. Right. You know, I, as a single man looking forward, I wasn't sure I could get married. I wasn't sure if I'd be a good dad, there was fears, there was apprehensions and, you know, counseling really played a role as well as for me a, um, really a spiritual father, uh, that, that stepped in, uh, to really walk me through that if you will, so that I could have a deeper level of confidence entering into marriage and in parent.

But ultimately I would say that it, it, it, the, the fears of am I gonna repeat the same mistakes, uh, of my parents, am I gonna have? And I did have anger issues, you know, and, and, and, uh, things that I had to work through as I became a dad, it was, it is almost as if you can only do so much looking at it, uh, from a distance.

And the real transformation in my life happened in the midst of being a husband and a father. Um, as opposed to, although I did have real fears and kind of concerns coming into this, I was so attracted to my wife. I, I abandoned all fear and abandoned, then no reason and jump in. And, and really that, that saved me, you know, because I, I, again, as, as a, as somebody who, you know, believes in, in God as father, um, I realized that I had a major impediment.

In relating to God as father, because of my own earthly father and wrestling with that, understanding that and getting to a place where I needed to be healed first as a son, before I could become a spouse. And then a father, if that makes sense to you, like my identity needed to be confirmed and affirmed that I was somebody's beloved son.

And as, uh, there's a moment. And, um, my, my eldest daughter, I, I have this moment where. I remember sitting there and I was, was holding this infant who did nothing for me, uh, who all that, that we, we fed her, we clothed her, we woke up with her in the middle of the night. And then as a thanks, she would throw up on us.

She would fill up her diaper, you know, this is, but, but I couldn't, I couldn't just understand how I could love her this much, you know, be it was almost overwhelming. And then I get to a place as I'm I'm sitting there and I hear this whisper of God to me. And now you have a glimpse of how much I love you.

Yeah. And for me it was, it was a, a pivotal moment. Again, I know everyone comes at a different standpoint, but if it was in that gift of me being a father of me, understanding. That I began to even receive love and to be healed and affirmed as a son. Um, and that was really a, a, a pivotal moment, you know, kind of as least Alicia was alluding to, but, you know, that was in the end of the journey.

And there was still lots of things to unpack because I, um, as I, I, I mentioned before, you know, I, I have lots of learned behavior. I have lots of wounds, but also learned behavior, uh, growing up that, of how to deal with what does discipline look like, or how does, you know, anger, uh, play into our lives? You know, and those, those things come out.

you know, all the junk of our past for sure comes out and. I needed to, to keep as a, an adult, uh, to recognize that the, the more that I was able to deal with, my divorce, the divorce that, uh, from my family, um, the, the, the loss that I had of a love of a mom and a dad of the formation, because there were both dealing with their own stuff.

Yeah. I needed to really process that so that I could be a better spouse and a better husband. I dunno if that, that makes sense, but it's just like, uh, there, there's such, there's such a, um, a pull for me to just dive in and feel like I, I should have known, uh, what it was, what it meant to be a father, but because of the divorce, it actually put me in a very humble place where I said, I have, I have no reference point.

And so I was really hungry looking for answers, but realizing I still don't have, uh, all that I need in some ways, but it, it, it kind of gave me the, uh, freedom. To say, okay, let's go find other mentors. Let's find others. And also required me in, in many ways to deal with the garbage that I had been given the, the, the feeling of being broken and having the humility and really the, uh, I guess looking back on it, the courage to admit I was weak, I was wounded and I needed help.

That was a, a big deal because that's not typical for men to want to admit that so that was, that was huge. Absolutely. And yeah, I can relate to so much of that. And you mentioned that, uh, yeah, just having a mentor, an older man who kind of could walk alongside you was so helpful. It was the same for me. Uh, it was actually a spiritual director that I had, uh, there at Franciscan and he was more than a spiritual director.

He was like I mentioned, uh, really just a mentor, able to help me guide me in different areas of life and just his affirmation, uh, of me as a man was just so, so helpful and so healing and yeah. So I, I can totally relate with that. And I think, uh, other people. Who who've walked that path too. They they've found it to be extremely helpful.

You mentioned fears that, that you experienced and you alluded to some of them. Uh, I'm curious, what, what were some of those fears about fatherhood specifically and what was most helpful to overcome those fears? I had to get to a play. Well, I'll do it by way of, I, I thought I was gonna follow in the same footsteps.

Like I felt so under the influence of my father, that I knew when I was a child, as an adult entering into marriage, you know, that, um, I thought I was crippled and I was, I was gonna be set off. And I had really very little, very minimal boundaries between my dad and me in healthy, uh, healthy relationship.

Right. So some word from him could set me off or this, or. and I had a, I had a spiritual, uh, so I'm, I'm not really answering your question, but I'm gonna tell you something but, but I had a, uh, you know, a, a, a, uh, uh, somebody, uh, spiritual father to me say, you really need to work. The, the only path through this is, is forgiveness, but not just a trite, not just a, oh, I forgive you.

It's okay. Move on. It was a know how you were wounded, know how you were hurt, know what, what, uh, was lost and, uh, and really itemize it if you will. Yeah. So as to then say, I forgive you for all of this, uh, and that. That was hard. That was painful. It was a long process if you will, with, with some counseling, uh, involve, this was before we were married.

Yeah. Before, when we were dating. Yeah. And being able to sit down and actually, and again, I don't recommend this for everybody, but I sat down with my dad and went through that. And although through AA, he has, you know, he has, he had, had kind of tried to make, uh, rested, amends and so forth. I don't think he understood from my perspective what had happened.

Um, and by saying that to him, it, it, it changed our relationship dramatically, but I, I ended it with, and, and I forgive you. And there was a release there that, that I felt like I was up until that moment. I was somewhat trapped under his. and, and it wasn't hit by his design, but it, but it was under the, kind of this, this old pattern, this old way of relating this old way of being a man.

I kind of made a, at that moment, made a break and said, you no longer have power over me. And I, I think it's important too, to note that he, when Mike had that conversation with his dad, he wasn't having that conversation to get something from his dad. Right. He didn't need his father to say I'm sorry, or anything, because he had already forgiven him.

He was ready, ready to rare. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so that conversation was kind of like the, the ending or the culmination. It was kind of like the outward result of something inward that had already happened. And I think that that's why it worked because if he was going there saying, I'm gonna tell you this, and I want you to say, I'm sorry, then you're then, then the father still has that power over him, you know?

Right, right. But he was like, I don't. , you know, I just want you to know, I forgive you I'm I'm and that then he was free. Right. And, and, and just because, um, if I was looking for some great response, right. I, I, I, I, I caught my dad way off guard. Yeah. And he was not, not only not expecting it, it, it, it really, I think shocked him, uh, you know, the, the kind of, some of the detail, but it.

It was important for me, cuz then I actually began a new relationship with my dad. Right. And again, but he's not a bad person. No. And we actually have a really decent relationship now, but it, but it, but again, not everybody's can follow that path and I don't necessarily recommend it, but it, it, it, it brought me new level of freedom.

So that the fear that I, so one of the big fears was, am I gonna let this pass through me? That was probably my greatest fear is that I was gonna let the poison of either alcohol or divorce go from my father, from my parents' marriage through, uh, me to my future bride and children and substantially at that date, I would say that that fear was resolved.

That was probably the biggest thing that was like I a dark cloud. If you will, from teenage years, all the way through thinking my life is heading towards a, a cliff on some level. And that fear was removed, but then there's the, you know, there's still the, I still don't know how to really give myself away to my bride.

I, I still don't know how to deal with my anger and that's something I, that, that, that was probably the, one of the other fears was that I was just not gonna be capable and able to be a dad. Cause I didn't know how to do it. And I didn't have a father that was present. Um, again, I look back on it now and I see much more, so many years later, I see many more bright spots than I probably was willing to appreciate back then, because I think this is for a lot of adult children sure of divorce is that we block out memories, you know, and we have patch.

I have a patchy memory of, of a lot of my childhood. And, um, that, that I think is indicative. At least the way I take it is that it's a self defense mechanism. You know, that there was some, uh, you know, the trauma of divorce, the trauma of the, the tension in the household before that. And I, from my perspective in getting married, like we talked about children and what we wanted out of our family, we talk a lot about those things before we got engaged, you know, and then during engagement.

And I always felt in some ways, and this is gonna sound a little crazy, but that the divorce, you know, was a hidden blessing in a way, because it made Mike so aware of what he didn't know, you know? And I think that I that's true, see some couples and they just kind of like skip into marriage, being like, oh, it'll all work out.

You know, it'll be fine. Mike never had that attitude. I, that was an illusion. I never had that illusion. He never had that illusion. That it's all gonna be fine. Cause he knew, you know what, sometimes it's not fine. You know? And so he was very, very intentional about, I want my family to be different. I want my family to be different than the way I was raised.

And I knew that. From the time we were dating, you know, which is one of the things that was very attractive to me in looking for someone I wanted to have a family with is that I knew, even though he came from this broken background, I knew that he was gonna be so intentional and passionate about being an amazing husband and father.

And I saw him taking steps to learn how to do that in the families that he was with and the spiritual direction that he was having and, you know, and all of those kinds of things. So in a way, it was like, Hey, God can bring good out of everything. You know, he really can. And I feel like that's what he did for us.

It's amazing. Yeah, there was no room for complacency. You had to make a choice one way or the other. And that's beautiful. There was something you mentioned that was really important. I wanna highlight for everyone listening and, and this is just a healing principle across the board, and that is, uh, naming how you've been harmed, identifying your wounds and just really understanding them as if they were a physical disease.

Like in order for a doctor to treat some illness first, they have to diagnose it. They have to understand it. And so one counselor that, that we love, uh, Adam Young, he has the podcast, the place we find ourselves awesome podcast. He says that when it comes to experiencing healing, naming how you've been harmed is about 70% of the battle.

And so I just love what you said there and, uh, just the role that forgiveness played in your story too. That's something we haven't talked about a, a ton on this show. It's so important. I've experienced that freedom that you're talking about. And it's hard to explain that to people who haven't experienced it.

It's like, yeah, forgiveness is really good. It's really powerful. Like it's really freeing, but until you actually go through that, it's really difficult to understand that that's just what we've seen in working with, with young people who come from broken homes. Yeah. It, it, it really, and I know I said this already, but it just, they know, by, through forgiveness the, my past and never had power over me again, you know, again, there were, there were still moments that it was repeating different things or whatever, but, but as a whole, it broke the past power, you know, the, the, the, the wounds of the past, having that power over me.

And I, I, again, not that I was perfect from that moment on, but it was such a moment of grace. And I mean that in the fullest sense of that word, you know, that there was just a gift, um, that I could see with new eyes. Um, and I, I, I really think everybody needs it. And I think as, as awful as divorces and as the pains and the loss, um, that, that come from divorce, we do, we are gifted.

We, we have a super, you know, it's kinda like the radioactive spider, that, that bit us, you know, we have a deeper, um, uh, appreciation and hopefully a humility that we've gotta work on this. And I don't think anybody. Perfectly equipped for marriage or, or parenting. Right. Um, but we as adult children, I think as a general rule know, we don't have it.

Don't have what it takes and we are gonna look for it and we're gonna be hungry for it. I think the biggest mistake anybody can make and, and us, uh, as adult children, as well of divorce is to say with false confidence, oh, I'll, I'll, I'll be fine. And I don't have to work on this, or I can ignore the past and, uh, and just move on with my life.

And then everything will be fine. Um, that as long as we don't take that perspective, I really believe that there is a power to our humility and knowing that we need help, we need work, uh, in our lives. Yeah. Uh, so good. It's so easy to be arrogant and just like completely miss, like, like you said, if you don't have humility, you won't even identify the problem in the first place and therefore you can't heal, you can't grow.

And, uh, when it comes to forgiveness, the point you made about like reconciling with your dad, that's so beautiful. You were able to do that. And I love that you distinguish that some people can, some people can't and kind of what we say is like, that's the ideal, like if you can reconcile with one or both of your parents, that's awesome.

But if there's a, an unhealthy dynamic, a toxic relationship there where it wouldn't be good for you to do that, you can still forgive at a distance. And I love that. Um, you highlighted that and I think it's really important. And going to what you said about. Blocking out memories. I have a friend who is a psychologist and she's, uh, a trauma therapist.

She specializes in trauma therapy. She's just about done with her PhD. And one of the things she taught me was that our brains literally have a mechanism. Like, like you said, that they block out memories that we're not equipped to like emotionally handle. And so until we're in a space and we have people in our lives who can help us so kinda work through those things, we literally will forget those things in a way, because our brain's trying to protect us.

Oh, I love how our whole body, our whole kind of ecosystem, our human, um, uh, system really works to protect us, to build us up. Like, cause I have just met many. We have met many couple. Who it's only when they're in the kind of safety of their marriage and that they feel loved and supported, and they ha that their issues start coming out.

And it, it is, it is some people were surprised by it. You know, like, why is this, why am I feeling this way now? And I'm like, cuz you couldn't have dealt with it before you weren't at a place where your life and your situation was able to. And I have found that, you know, even though it, it, it was a substantial movement, um, in that forgiveness, there have been those, you know, and then I've talked about the, my, my eldest daughter, but there are many moments of both bringing me, uh, to a very humble place.

But also just with the safety of, of knowing that my wife really means it when she says she loves me, you know, that, that they're, and that meaning that word, even the definition of what I thought loved was to what it really is when there's somebody who's willing to do anything for you, that's willing to be weak and strong for you in, in and give of themselves in a way that.

I'd never known that somebody could like me with all of the junk, with all of secrets revealed and the li you know, all that stuff that maybe we stuff down. And, and, and, but that's when there's true freedom, that's when there's true life, uh, when you're in that kind of a relationship and those, you know, and maybe not all memories will come back, but, but that, there is, I never thought about that before.

And for me now, again, we've, we've been married a while. I'm actually remembering more of the good things that I kind of blocked out to talking with your sister. Yeah. And talking with my, yeah. Talking with siblings about that in their own healing journey. That's the other thing I think that is really beautiful is that when you have siblings who you can journey with, you know, that path appealing, you can journey with them.

So Mike did the, um, the life giving wounds retreat with Dan Meola, um, just recently. And we had never, he had never really thought. What I think is interesting is that I had seen about this retreat. And I brought up to Mike and he was kind of like, eh, I don't know, you know, I've been through counseling, I've been there before.

Right. And I was like, well, you should, you know, check it out. Maybe one of your siblings would do it. And so he and his sister went through it together and, and it was so good because I think it opened up his eyes, Mike's eyes to the continual healing that God still wanted to do in him and what he wanted to teach him.

But then really so beautiful is that his sister who's so many years older than you, 10 years older than you or so, you know, they were able to connect on a new level as well, you know, as they both shared about their memories and things, which were different, know, it was actually surprise. It surprised me actually.

Uh, Joey, just even talking to my siblings, the. I don't remember, or she remembered differently, or I remember differently cause Mike is on the younger end and they're all older than him. And so it, it was, it was, it was very, very interesting to see and the relationship that she has versus the relation, you know what I mean?

Like all of those nuances, it helped paint a fuller picture. Right. And, uh, you know, there's, there's just a beauty about being able to see our lives and even the, the wounds of the past and see it from new perspective. And I don't think if I, if we didn't go on that experience, that retreat together, um, that we would've had the opportunity.

To share about it. And although we had kind of mentioned it before, we were kind of, we all knew that everybody's done their own little path, if you will. Right. But it was a perfect excuse. Yeah. And it actually brought us closer together through that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Love that. Yeah. And I, I think it's so helpful to have like a space to work through those things too.

Uh, and that's where I think Dan's retreats are, are great because, you know, it's hard to listen to a podcast. We've even gotten this feedback on this podcast. It's like some of the things we talk about they're heavy and you, you kind of just need to take a step back from day to day life. And so I love that you were able to do that with your sister.

My brother and I actually were, were talking the other day. And we were talking about the fact that healing is not just like this checklist of things to do. It's, it's relational on so many levels and. There's so many voids that we have in our hearts that we need people to love and affirm us, like you mentioned before, Mike.

And so it's really important. And that reminds me of some research they did at Harvard on happiness, that the book, the happiness advantage, it kind of summarizes their findings. And what they found was really the happiest people were the ones who lived close to their family and they had healthy, intimate relationship with their parents and siblings.

Wow. I would love to see this study. that's so interesting. Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah. Great book. So the happiness advantage is the book and, uh, it's probably could have been half the size, but you know, it's, it's like really, really great research and they found some awesome things and, and yeah, that's basically what they found is like the strength of your social connections.

Your family relationships in particular really are the determining factor of your level. That makes sense though, but beautiful. I love. I wanna, uh, shift gears a little bit and put you guys on the spot. So I hope you're okay with that. I'm just wondering yeah. Where yeah. OK. Yeah, no, I I've listened to your podcast and I love how vulnerable you guys are.

I think there's, yeah, it teaches so much. It's so helpful. Yeah. So I'm curious, where have you failed as parents and what have you learned from those failures? So we can learn from you and how much time do you have? No, , , let's see three hours. Exactly. Right. Um, how have I failed as parent? I think, you know what, the one thing that I actually was just thinking about recently is how important it is to put ourselves in our children's shoes.

You know? And, and I, I was actually thinking about like an experiment, like what if you had, and I, what, if you, what if you had a person sitting in a. And when they went over to this area of the room, they were just, you know, ignored, oh, you know, whatever good things happened. But then they went into this area of the room and all of a sudden, some people started yelling at them and they, they touched something.

And then you get like a little shock, you know, but then if you go over here and then, then you go over again, but nothing happens. Like sometimes we have to realize that's what it's like for our kids. Especially like toddlers, who the whole world is new to them. And how many times have I exploded at my children or, or expected them to know something that I never told them, you know, or like, and I've eaten.

My one, one of my kids is very verbal and very, um, outgoing. And if I like will yell at him or whatever, like he's turned around and said to me, mom, you just told me to do this. Or I wasn't doing what you think I was doing. I was actually doing this other thing and I've had to go, oh, sorry. You know, like I was assuming you were doing something wrong and he is like, mom, you're assuming I'm doing no, I'm not.

You know? And, and it's just because he's really verbal. How many. Would I say that to another child who's maybe more quiet. We have 10 children. I don't know if we said that before. So if kids from all ages, you know, eight to 25 and grandchildren as well, but how many times would I maybe yell at another child who wouldn't call me out?

You know, the way that my son did who would just kind of like internalize that and that's not good, you know? And so I really think that one of the keys that to good parenting and one of the things that I know I am still I'm doing better at now that I'm older , but I didn't do as well. Definitely when I was younger is empathy and putting myself in their shoes, you know, like, okay, why they're grabbing these cookies off the table, whatever, why are they doing that?

You know, not that we always have to analyze everything that they do, but I think just to have that empathy of realizing, you know, what they don't understand, you know, they, they just don't know. They don't know. Okay. And that, that kind of helps you to have more patience. And more understanding and more of a teaching training attitude rather than you are driving me crazy.

You're so frustrating. You know, so I think that it kind of like overall, like parenting failure, things like that, like there's, there's definitely a lot of times that I have gone overboard and hurt my children's feelings, but I think the key is, is forgiveness. You know, like just as you know, Mike needing to forgive his dad, like I need to ask my children for forgiveness.

I need to say, I'm sorry that I yelled at you in that way, you know? Um, I'm sorry that I yelled at you for taking the car or whatever, but you're still grounded, you know, so just like kind of like recognizing that we do need to provide training and guidance to our children. But we can't make our emotion, a weapon that we wanna like wield over our kids.

But when you do, you can ask forgiveness of your children and, and then God can use that because that can be a powerful thing, you know, to ask forgiveness of your kids, parenting failed, Mike. Oh, I, yeah. Again, we, we, we could go into this for a while, but I, I kind of alluded to this earlier, but my anger was definitely something that was, I I'm I'm, uh, my parenting philosophy had been for many years, ignore, ignore explode.

Um, and so, you know, a child's doing something that is either we disagree with or, you know, is just annoying. I'll ignore it, I'll ignore it. And then I, when they kept pushing, when they kept, you know, particularly teenagers, they seemed to be experts at pushing all of my buttons. , uh, you know, they may have gotten a master's degree and I don't know what, but, but it was one of those times that I remember.

Uh, you know, handful of occasions where I just lose my cool, I lose my control. And, um, and I would yell at the kids and I would then impose very, uh, kind of, because I was so angry because the synapsis in my brains were refused together. I wasn't thinking clearly. And I impose, you know, really harsh, uh, punishments on them, which later at least she be like, well, maybe we shouldn't do that.

Or then she would give me the eye, like yeah. You know, and, and happily, she didn't correct me in front of the kids, but afterwards, like, I don't think that you handled that really. And it was, and I mean, actually do remember sometimes, um, especially when our oldest were teenager. Having to come and, and like, kind of like almost take your arm or touch you and being like, we need to walk away right now.

You know, like this is getting, this is too much. And that was definitely, yeah. You know, that was a, a major, major fail. And it also led me to some great guilt of sure. Am I repeat, you know, then that's when the fears, if you will. Yeah. Resurfaced of like, am I just repeating what I grew up with? Am I falling back into the default, uh, of that?

So anyway, that was that that's probably the biggest failure, um, yeah. In, in my parenting, um, controlling emotions. Yeah. But then there's like the little things like last night, um, it's seriously, this literally happened last night. Our son is sitting at the dinner table. I had made spinach, which I love some of the kids love he tries to get up and he is like, I was like, sit down and you need to finish that spin.

And he is like, oh mom, I'm like, I do not care. Put it on your fork and eat it. And the next thing I know, he threw up all over the table. I'm not kidding. I was mad at him. I was like, how damn you throw up? And Michael's like, he literally, he threw all over the table. Alicia, he threw up it's it's okay. It was, it wasn't that he just spit out the food.

He empty his stomach and he actually, Mike said, Alicia, there was no food on. Bla a minute ago. And it was like full of God, which is gross. I'm sorry. You can edit that out later. OK. Before that one. And, and I wish we would've learned this lesson because that's not the first time that's happened, not with this child, but with other, that actually has happened before once before, when I have forced a child to eat something that would be a great failure right there.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So do you want, keep it going no, no, no. This is great. Yeah, I'm sure we could do like a whole show. No, it's, it's incredible though. I love what you said, learning from your fellows. That's so important. Like we need to have the freedom to fail. Yeah. It's so key. I talk about this a lot, you know, with my team members, like in the business world, and if you, you need to have that freedom to fail because that's how you learn.

That's how you get better. That's how you get stronger. And what you said too, is like, you can repair the relationship. And I think Mike, for people like us, that's almost like this revolutionary idea. It's like, You can actually resolve conflict. You don't just like walk away and leave it undone. And like things just fall apart.

No, it's like, you can actually repair the relationship when something goes wrong. And for me that's been so encouraging is in my own marriage. Um, and especially looking forward as an parent. No, I agree with you. And it's one of those moments where, you know, the business world would say, you know, our entrepreneurs fail fast.

It's like, do any parents look at our failures and see that as, as a moment for guilt or shame or regret or. You know, or we just ignore it and move on, like you said, but the reality is is that every one of us is gonna fail own that, be comfortable with that, and then just learn from it and what we, one of our, our principles, uh, that we teach in, in our parenting, uh, you know, in our podcast and, and the, the, the conferences and retreats that we run is that it is not your job to, to turn your kids into perfect little, uh, saints.

Uh, it's their job to transform you. Meaning we get transformed through our parenting, into the best version of ourselves. It's by giving ourselves away that we're figuring out our faults, our mistakes, our, uh, lack of virtue or lack of self control or whatever it might be. So that through this we're learning, we're being shaped, we're being transformed.

All our rough edges are being shaved off. And it's a beautiful thing. When we take extreme ownership for our lives. Yeah, and that that's gonna, it's gonna change us, but it's also gonna be, if we, if we get that on the front end, you know, Joe, we learned this on the front end, you know, our, you know it, but it's like our failures as parents are all about how we are formed as parents.

Right? If that makes any sense. And I think sometimes, especially if you think that it's, it's my job to make this child into a Saint, then if something goes wrong, well, they're just not becoming a Saint it's, you're focused on the child on, on them. It's like, no in wait back up, time out, you need to be working on you.

The only person that you can change is yourself, you know, and that includes your children. Yes. You're there to form them and guide them and model for them and, you know, discipline and give that guidance to them. But the changing has to be up to them and, and we need to look at ourselves and. How, how can I love them better?

How can what's what is in me that is causing this, you know, whatever this frustration that's rising up in me, because they're just a kid, like they don't know, they're not waking up in the morning saying, oh, how can I annoy mom today? You know, like, how can I drive crazy guarantee? They are not thinking that at all.

They're thinking, you know, just life love. I want mommy to love me. I want daddy love me, you know? And when we get angry with them and we get emotional about their mistakes, we need to look at ourselves and say, okay, what's going on here? Like what's going on in, in us and not look at ourselves as failures, but we're still learning too, you know?

And God's trying to refine us, like Mike was saying, that's right, shave off those rub edges. Bring us to our knees and make us aware of our need for God's mercy. And that is not a bad thing. If children make you more aware of God's mercy, that's, that's a good place to be. that? No, that's so refreshing to what you said.

It's like, this is part of the process, like expect it. And I think that's so hopeful for anyone listening right now who maybe feels like they're, uh, you know, not able to be a good parent. It's like, yeah, you're gonna fail, but that's okay. Like you can learn from it. You can move forward. And, and so many good pieces of advice that you guys said.

And Mike, I appreciate that, you know, telling the, the advice that you gave me to just expect that and, and really prepare for it, because I think so often maybe as men, we have more of this tendency, it's easy to thrive maybe in one area of our lives. Maybe like you said, being humble in business and learning to fail fast, but.

You apply it to your marriage and it's like, you're pathetic at it. I know I've experienced that in my own life. Like I'm good at something in one area and then the other is not. So I, I appreciate that. And I wanna go back to something you said too, just about anger. Um, I've personally dealt with this too, especially right after my parents separated, when I was 11, I had all sorts of anger issues and had to go to anger management school.

Basically. It was very humbling. Um, but yeah, I think so many men deal with this and I think it, it points a bigger issue of just letting your emotions control your actions and whether that's in marriage and business and friendship or, or in parenting. And so yeah, the ability to detach, to take ownership of your actions and when you do mess up, just own it and, and make it better.

Yeah, man, there's so much I wanna say right now, you guys are fantastic. Alicia, just back to what you said. Putting yourself in your kids' shoes. One of the things kind of to add to that, that I've noticed with parents just kind of observing my own parents and then other parents around me is that I, I think we kind of forget what it was like to be kids.

Like, I, I try to remind myself that sometimes, like, what did I think and feel when I was like that age? And, uh, the more I've done that the more I've realized like, yeah, like there should be more grace, a hundred percent. And I do, I actually , I, a lot of times I very reflexively think about my childhood and think about what did my parents do in this situation.

And I think that that is a disadvantage, um, for children of divorce, if you don't have any memory of your dad being there, how would my dad handle this? Or your mom being there? How would my mom handle this? I don't know. I have nothing, you know, but I really do think about that. A lot of remember. Oh, well, how was he kid?

What would my mom do? You know? And I just almost subconsciously, you know, I think that right. And it, and it's good too, to remember your own childhood. And if that's hard to do, I could see how that would be, you know, a difficulty. No, for sure. I want to, uh, get your advice. On, uh, a bunch of different scenarios.

I'm gonna throw these at you. We can do kind of a back and forth soundbite thing here, uh, cuz I'm sure we could talk about each of these for forever. Um, and I have to admit little confession, a little bit of a selfish interview because, uh, my wife and I are expecting a baby. Uh, she'll be in about two months and we're so excited.

Yeah. Thank you. And yeah, so just trying to, you know, we're reading and trying to learn and listening to your podcast and all that and it's been fantastic. Thank you for that. Um, so yeah, I just wanna go through just series of questions and if you would give us your advice and uh, yeah, I guess the first thing is like as a new parent, if you could go back in time to yourself as a new parent, uh, and give some advice, uh, yeah.

What are a couple things that you'd say main points and I'm sure this might echo some of the things you said before, but what the first, the first thing that comes to mind. Chill out uh, yeah, we we're, as, as parents, we, we have to recognize we're playing a long game. It's it's not a sprint. It really is a long race and that there are gonna be cycles and seasons, uh, you know, early on you may get no sleep with a newborn, you know, and, and, and infant, uh, child, uh, or there's gonna be times when you have maybe one or two little kids that are just draining you and you're in the survival zone.

Mm-hmm, , they're seasons of life. And, um, and we need to have a longer perspective this isn't, you're not gonna stay in that zone forever. Um, but which is, is good and bad, right? Meaning sometimes you'll get through it quickly, but. Um, there are good moments, which, you know, just to really appreciate and, and soak up those moments because, you know, we have two, uh, married children now and, um, you know, three others who are essentially out, uh, out of the house, they do kids do grow up so fast.

So, so one don't get stressed. I know it doesn't feel like it, but they do but, and I never believed anybody, uh, who told me that . Um, but I would, I would say that that, that don't sweat, the small stuff have a bigger, longer term perspective. Um, and really kind of embrace, uh, each of those moments cuz they, you, for that child, you only have, you know, you have a limited amount of time and it's, and it's a gift.

Right. Uh, and to really embrace that, I, I felt like I kind of felt like I was looking for the right answer to everything. Yeah. Like I wanted to just do it. Right. I wanted to find to be the perfect there. Different. Yeah, exactly. I wanted to find like that perfect method. And I think a lot of people do that today.

Well, studies showed this, so this is what I should do. But the problem is that you can find studies that absolutely contradict each other about the way that you should raise an infant as far as like sleep schedules and feeding and you know, how you respond to them and you can find studies that are all over the place.

But what you really need to do is just work with unity, with your spouse on what is the best for you as a couple, what is the best thing for your family? And don't worry, don't worry about. doing it perfectly. It's okay. Like you were saying before, it's okay to make mistakes. You're going to make mistakes.

You're gonna try something to get them to go to sleep and it's not gonna work. And that's okay. That's totally fine. You can try something else or maybe you just need to try what you were doing a little bit longer. And so I feel like for me, like what I would tell myself, you know, if I was talking to myself as a new mom, say, don't worry about getting it all right.

And also just enjoy your children more. That's part of the great thing about being a grandparent now is that can just enjoy our grandchildren. And I have to say that even our younger children, um, like numbers eight, nine, and 10, I feel like we still. Take more time to just enjoy them. Yeah. And them just play games, games, hang out and just like laugh at them and just realize that, you know what I mean?

Like just kind of relax a little bit and not worry about, well, I have to hurry up and teach them all these things, because this is the important point to teach this blah, blah, blah. You know, it's okay. It's okay. Like it is it, your childhood does go fast, but it's also, you have time to teach them things little by little and a lot of things, times you are modeling, you're modeling for them, the way that you live your life is more important than anything you say, or any discipline plan that you have or anything like that.

Loving them and modeling God's love for them. Honestly, I really do think is the most important thing. I think that's more important. Then being really strict and firm on certain rules or having the perfect rules of the perfect system. Sorry, one, one thing that, that I, as long as you don't contradict me, yes.

You, everything you said was perfect. There you go. Perfect. Um, so if you learn this after 27 years, it's about priorities man, prior battles wisely. Uh, no. So, so, but I, I think I, I don't, I think now I appreciate it more than I did back then. The importance of our marriage. Yeah. Um, a as much as I loved my wife and we got, well, I think I took things for granted, meaning we, we were good.

We were both good people. We were trying to deal with our own stuff. And we were collaborating in this great work of raising these kids. And I would probably look back and. get a better habit of date nights. Yeah. Uh, on a regular basis basis for sure. Uh, going out together. Um, I think that we, early on, we were very good about that and then kids just make it more difficult, but I think they make everything more difficult but I think we, I, I gave up or settled too quickly and then I accepted jobs, um, that had me traveling a lot for work and I didn't compensate, you know, by saying, okay, now that I'm physically not home, how am I gonna maintain my emotional intimacy, uh, with my wife when we're physically not present?

Um, I, I think that looking back I've, you know, that would be, you know, some of the things that I, I think is strong, We're also seeing the fruit, you know, again, I think we have a great marriage, but it's like not taking any of that for granted and, and really developing early on good habits of yeah. Date nights and communication and so forth because we're seeing some, um, couples now come to us, struggling with even their own kids who now have left.

The faith are not following in their values. And one of the things that, that I, a common theme, common, the common theme was they had some major challenges in their marriages. And I look at that and I think that has a bigger influence than we may realize. Yeah. Uh, on our kids, like sleeping in separate bedrooms, you know, for years and years, that's, that's gonna affect your children, you know, and that's gonna affect the way that they see marriage and that they.

God and the faith and, and all of that. So, and, and anyway, it's important to work on your marriage and I'm sorry, I know you, I'm gonna just throw this out, just cause I've seen a couple of people for adult children of divorce, who, because they don't wanna repeat. What happened to them as a child, they often pour themselves out into their kids and they pour themselves into forming and loving their children that they actually unintentionally neglect their neglect, their marriage.

Yeah. And, um, and, and by doing that, you're actually. Undercutting the way that you're loving your kids and forming your kids, cuz the, the, um, the number one thing is if you wanna be a great parent, you need to be an even more amazing spouse. And I, I think we sometimes get things disordered, um, in our parenting.

Yeah. So anyway, sorry. I, I probably have other stuff you wanted rapid fire no, no, no, this is fantastic. And yeah, I'd like to stay there for a second. I think you guys covered that topic well, but I just wanna make sure everyone understands what we're saying here. Uh, there's a very big difference between a family that puts the children first and a family that puts the marriage first parents who put the kids first parents who put the marriage first.

And I actually had. Kinda debate with my mom recently. She very much so took the approach that the kids come first. And, uh, and I just wholeheartedly disagree with that. I agree with what you guys are saying. I've heard you say it on your podcast. It's so important to put your marriage first and obviously like you can't neglect your kids.

Like you need to feed them and take care of them. Um, there's a balancer of course, but, but I, I do believe in kind of the marriage centered family. Um, yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to add to that for someone who maybe isn't sure why that's so important? The, I just think about it. What were you like Mike was saying about your identity first as a son or a daughter, right?

That's that's how we start out. We all start out as children. Well then that's the next thing that happens or that should happen in the order of relationships you get married, like you get married first, then you have children or you need another person. You need that relationship. Your children come from.

Your relationship. That's where they come from. Right. And they don't, they don't, the children don't come first. And then, I mean, it's ridiculous, right? If you just even think about it naturally in the order of creation, they can. But then if you think about the order of grace, there is no, you know, as Catholics, we believe that marriage is a sacrament.

Well what's is there a sacrament of motherhood or is there a sacrament of fatherhood? No, there isn't. It's the sacrament of matrimony. That's where you get the grace to be a parent. You get the grace to be a parent from the sacrament of Mamo and you can't be, you cannot love your child. You cannot, we, first of all, only God can satisfy your longing of their heart.

But even me as their mother, I can't give them naturally everything they need in relationship. They not only do they need their father. but they also need our couple love, right? Our love together as a couple, that child needs that. And which is again, one of the tragedy of divorces. Is that still? Yes. Your father still loves you.

Your mother may still love you, but you lost their couple love and that's a security and a, and a place right. Of safety for kids, kids. I mean, you know, it's kinda like if you just think about. Uh, kind of psychological development of, or civilization development. Like you can't establish yourself, you can't have civilizations when they're, they're moving from place to place and they're afraid of enemies attacking or they've got food, right?

Mm-hmm but it's like, but when you are able to create a marriage centered family, you create a stabilizing force for your kids to be at peace, to be at a place where they can reveal themselves. And again, it's we? Yes, we need, um, a mom and a dad. Every child has a right to a mom and a dad to love them, but they need that extra protection, not extra.

That protection is necessary for their development and growth to have the love of that couple. One of the greatest parenting, um, approaches that you'll ever have comes from the unity of yeah. Your, of the spouses. And if you don't have that kind of deep, uh, loving intimacy, your kids, aren't gonna understand what true love is.

Cuz you're the first model of what real love is what real sacrifice mm-hmm means about how to give themselves away. The lessons that you teach simply by showing up and loving your spouse will leave lasting lasting memories. We, we had this, this, uh, priest that we interviewed a little while back and his, um, when we asked him, how did he, um, you know, how did he maintain his faith and so forth?

The first thing he turned to was talking about his parents and his grandparents love for one another more than about God or experience it was that, that they passed on this deep love for each other. Yeah. And that was how he found his vocation to give himself away. And so we need to give that for our kids'.

A true witness of what, and again, as Christians, we believe that Christ said, um, marriage is the model of how Christ, how God loves his people. Mm-hmm and how Christ loves the church. And so that's an image that they need to learn from. We need that to be the foundation of their physical, spiritual, emotional, and psychological development is that deep abiding love that no one person can do on their own.

And I really think too, that it's a it's disordered it's it sends a disordered message because when you have two adults looking at a child and they, this child is the center of their universe, that's a lot of pressure for a kid. You know, like most kids don't wanna be the center of their parents' universe.

They're like, yeah, I'm just growing up. Can you, you don't have a life of your ugly, you know, like I feel like it really is. It's too much. And it sends this message to their child that our life revolves around you. Our life does not revolve around our children. My life does not revolve around. That's creating a selfish child.

Exactly. My life has God in the center. And then our marriage with God, you know, intertwined is in the center of our family. And then our kids know that, and our kids are part of a community that is our family. They are participating members, not the focus of they are the participating members, which in this community.

And like, my dad would always say to us, he would like you kids. You're gonna be outta the house in 18 years. I'm living with this woman till the end of my life. You know, he was more important as far as the priority of relationships within the home. Their marriage was first. Yeah. You know, and we all knew that and it, and it gave us a, a sense of a real stability.

That's right. That's exactly so good. Yeah. And two things stuck out to me in what you guys said, one, just that the power of modeling, I, I think you guys have said this on your show. I've heard other people say it too. How you know more is, is caught than taught. And that's basically what you said before Alicia.

And, and I think that's so key because you know, Mike, you teach your boys. What it's like to be a man, how to treat a woman just by your presence, your example, the way you live your life and Alicia, the same for you and your girls. And so the them watching and seeing, okay, this is how you love. It's so important.

I think that's why we struggle so much in our relationships as people come from broken families, because we just didn't see a good model of that. And that's what the research shows. And the, the second thing is just the security. You guys mentioned that just the safety and security of the kids. So there's a couple that I really look up to.

They're just this beautiful marriage, great marriage. And I've been blessed to spend time with them. And they've really healed kind of this broken idea that I have of marriage. And, uh, they told me a story. Uh, on another episode we did with. They said that, uh, uh, Joe, the, the guy, his, his wife's name is, uh, Maria.

Uh, they were in the kitchen and he just like grabbed her and was kind of dancing with her and he kissed her. And, uh, his daughter, one of his daughters was just like standing there, just like soaking it all in just watching this. And, uh, he said, he looked down at her and he just saw this just pure joy in her face and just this sense of contentment and security.

And so there's more than maybe words can even express how putting your marriage through. So you exactly the situation you're describing. We have seen that many times with our children as well. It's true. As well as sometimes them going, uh, yeah. Are you kissing? But then we also seen particularly younger kids.

We were at Alicia was just talking about this the other day, about how, uh, particularly little guys, when we hugged. They'll like try to pull us in so that it's both of us, like she's getting like this, this group hug from mom and dad, you know, and there's this couple love that she wants. Like, I feel like that's the image is that, you know, I, oh, I love mommy.

Oh, but I want daddy in here too, you know? And it's like, that's the, that's the powerful symbol. Because again, at the end of the day, part of our hope for our children is that they are launched out into the world as you know, generous, kind, loving thinking about others first, all of these things that we want, well, how do we start that?

If, if they don't recognize that they're part of a, a community of love, right? And that they are the center, but that they are members of there, they are born in love for love and, and with love. Right. So that, that they then can be launched out, uh, with them. But without that stability. Without that marriage, uh, it really is.

It hurts. And again, that's what we're recognizing, right? As adult children of divorce, we're recognizing that we have had a wound that we've had a crippling. So the antidote for that yeah. Is not to simply protect ourselves and pour ourselves into our kids. It's the first pour ourselves into our marriage so that we together can form these kids and, and really change our family history, change the legacy that we have, uh, flowing out from us that our kids get something that we didn't get the love of both a mom and a dad, that marriage that is such a powerful force for kids.

Hmm, love it. Yeah. And it's, it's just so foundational when that foundation is shaken, it affects everything. And when it's strong, it affects everything. So good. I wanted to ask about, uh, when it comes to making decisions, like, obviously you make a lot of decisions as parents. Uh, what, what's your general advice from making decisions, especially when maybe you and your spouse don't see things at eye, you, you maybe disagree, uh, on something.

How, how do you handle that situation? Here's what I want parents to remember. It's better to be wrong together than right alone. Okay. you heard that, right? so we now of course, we're not talking about like moral, evil or whatever, but it's better for you to make a United decision that may not be like the absolute perfect plan or, you know, whatever, but it's something that you can both agree on rather than one of you being like, I know this is the right way and I'm just gonna go on and do it by myself.

Um, because your unity, the unity between mom and dad, that is the best parenting method then you could possibly have. And, you know, we talk about, we kind of already talked about this and the fact that, that, um, couple love or that the way we were just describing it to another couples we were talking to is like synergy, right?

So what's synergy in the business world. It's look all together. We can come up with a better idea than any one of us could by ourselves or than any one of us could come up with by compromising synergy is not compromising. It's not like, okay, well you wanted two and I wanted one. So we'll do one and a half.

No. Synergy is like, is us putting everything it's standing shoulder to shoulder with your that's gonna spouse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Standing shoulder to shoulder with your spouse, looking at this problem, looking at an issue and saying, how can we do this together? Because we're on the same page. We're on the same team.

Yeah. I just, but out here is the problem just to add to that. I, I really think that too many times we try to settle and we try to compromise. And, and again, there is a place for compromising, you know, or we just gotta go along for the, for peace at any price. Right. You know, like I don't argue anymore, so I'm just gotta let it go.

And, and sometimes we do just need to say, Hey, it's not that big of a deal to me. Right. Let's let it. I'm not gonna worry about it because I think sometimes we make things a bigger deal than they really need to be. Um, sometimes there are decisions that. It really doesn't matter to me, but I'm fighting for the principle of it.

Like, well, she won 10 of the arguments. I should have one of mine. That's not what it's about. You know, in marriage, it's about we're all in a hundred percent, a hundred percent, not 50 50. I only, I I'll give her some of the decisions. I'll take some of the decisions. That's not what a marriage makes. Yeah.

What we are talking about is the two become one, which is not an easy process, uh, that the two of you are forming a more United approach, but it comes when we, again, we talked about this a little bit earlier, but, and as Alicia mentioned already, it's business world. We want to be able to make a, a unified plan for our organization to succeed.

And in order to do that, we, as Alicia said, need to sh stand shoulder, shoulder, and look at the situation, the decision that's before. And not look at our petty counting the costs or who has done this, or how many times have we gone to your family or my family or, or whatever, whatever the decision might be.

It's looking at the situation and saying what's in our best interest for us as a couple and us as a family. And not settling. And sometimes what we have done, um, is take a step back from the, the practical, uh, applications and look back at the deeper reasons why. Right. Uh, which is a whole other pro we have this whole thing.

I think you may have heard of us talk about this on the podcast, but. A family board meeting where you get together and get unity on some of the biggest stuff in your life so that you can have a plan when the little things come up, you've already got a process. You already got some of the big things decided which help make some of the smaller decisions easier.

Right. Uh, as you go along. So good. Thank you guys so much. If people wanna learn more and, and get your advice on further parenting topics. Yeah. We'd love to have them join us@messyfamilyproject.org. Our website, um, has we have a little over 150, uh, podcast episodes. So whether it's in iTunes or Spotify or wherever you get your podcast, we're, we're, uh, streaming there.

Um, as well as we have, uh, online, uh, guides and resources, free conversation starters, we have a discipline guide that has proven to be very popular for people. So you can go and check that out if you have discipline questions. And we've just recently started a, uh, some courses in other events that we're doing as well on, uh, for formation of, of parents.

So it's all on the website. Awesome. We'll link to those in the show notes. Thank you guys so much for, for being here. And I just wanna give you the last word. What encouragement would you give to someone who comes from a broken home who maybe feels unable to be a good parent? They feel like, I don't think I have what it takes.

Uh, what encouragement. I, I don't know why God has entrusted with you a child, but he has, and you are perfectly designed. That's right. Uh, to be a parent for this child. That's right. The greatest gift you can give your child, um, is first loving their mom or dad loving your spouse, and then making sure you're always working on yourself, taking extreme ownership because the, um, the, those who are wounded, who.

Deal with their wounds will continue to wound and hurt others. The more that we can invest in freeing ourself up by, by healing and transformation, um, we will then be the best parents our kids could ever want because this, this whole idea of parenting is both for them. And for us, it's a path where we're giving ourselves away and learning the path of freedom.

The more genuine we are, um, with our kids and giving them the fullest love, we can, that's gonna set them up for great success and don't sweat the fact that you're not perfect. No, one's perfect. You're not alone. And everybody, uh, fails. Everyone has, uh, stumbles along the way. No one is, is equipped to fully be the best parent.

We just have to make sure we show up with our level best in dealing with our past. And, and, and yeah, and just know that God is, God is bigger than everything, you know, that's right. There's no, there's no problem that he can handle.

I could have talked with them forever. So many great things, so many great practical tips that they gave. But one big takeaway for, for new parents is that you don't have to be perfect. Like Mike and Alicia said, you will make mistakes. You don't have to get everything right. And that's okay. Just, just do your best.

Keep learning, keep growing, keep getting better, but you don't have to be perfect. And there, I think there's so much freedom in that. And it's a good reminder. And if you want more from Mike and Alicia, if you want more of their great content, their guidance, go ahead and listen to the messy family podcast.

Wherever you listen to podcasts again, that's the messy family podcast and on their show, if you wanna hear Mike's full story, listen to episode 1 56, again, that's episode 1 56 on the messy family. Podcast. I recommend starting, uh, with that show, but of course, feel free to dive in wherever you'd like. The resources mentioned are in the show notes@restoredministry.com slash 44.

Thank you so much for listen. And if this has been useful, I invite you to subscribe and to share this podcast with someone, you know, who could really use it, who would be useful for always remember you are not alone. We're here to help you feel whole again and become the person that you were born to be.